News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Chris Parker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2007, 09:10:58 PM »
Dave and Jeff,

Here is the plan that Jeff is speaking of.  The plan credits the design to Stanley Thompson, unfortunately it was drawn by a landscape architecture firm in Toronto.  Conn Smythe was one of the original shareholders of the course.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 09:11:25 PM by Chris Parker »
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Chris Parker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2007, 09:21:28 PM »
Is not the routing essential to the golf course.

Ian, the routing is most definitely essential to the golf course.  But aren't tees, bunkers and greens also?  When you're playing Summit, you're putting on Thompson's greens and hitting out of his (low-Thompson?) bunkers.

That's why I think it's important to have categories.  Summit clearly isn't an original Thompson design, but surely it can be classified as a Thompson course.  If not, what are the prerequisites for a true Thompson design?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 09:22:19 PM by Chris Parker »
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2007, 09:37:31 PM »
Chris,

I wish you hadn't posted the Orchard Beach plan! That's one of my treasured digital files  :'(

It's a really neat drawing, isn't it - showing what seems to be a really neat routing - featuring advertisement for Thompson's Jacksonville, Fla. office, too.  
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 09:38:39 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2007, 10:19:43 PM »
I think so much renovation was undertaken during the first three decades of the 20th century, and so little documentation exists in many cases, that it is very difficult to determine exactly what Thompson did and did not do during the period. His new courses are pretty clear -- but there seems to be a lot of 9-hole efforts, renos, total renos and other configurations out there.

Take Brantford -- clearly a Nicol design (I have the Canadian Golfer ad to prove it.) Could Stan have renovated it after? Surely. Same with Summit. Cataraqui includes nine entirely new holes, so that's pretty much entirely Thompson. London Highlands we know almost nothing about.... others are in the same boat. Problem is that many of these courses haven't done much looking into the issue either, and some, like Brantford, are listed on the Stanley Thompson Society site when they are clearly not Thompson's work.

What I'd like to know is this: Ian and co. went to Allandale this summer and Ian was floored by how intact it was. What Thompson course is out there that hardly anyone knows about, but might actually be worth playing. There is quite a list of Chris' site that I'm not familiar with...
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Ian Andrew

Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2007, 10:20:46 PM »
"Same book includes an advertisement for Stanley Thompson & Co. Limited, Golf and Landscape Engineers and Architects dated 1923. Part of the ad lists "A Few Recent Commissions" including Briars Golf & Country Club, Jackson's Point and Trumble Golf and Country Club, Warren, Ohio."

Dave,

Here's my issue with these lists from advertisements. Charles Alison designed York Downs and Stanley Thompson built it. York Downs is listed in that advertisement. Wanaka is listed too and they make it clear there a Donald Ross course.

There is another advertisement where he claims to of designed and built 12 courses in 1922, I have that here, its from Golf Illustrated.

He definately did the nine for The Briar's as Chris found a second notation in Canadian Golfer, there are things there that leave you to believe its his work.

Ian Andrew

Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2007, 10:28:23 PM »
Now the Howard Watson quote is facinating:

"....the need to further his ambition led to his first professional course design at Newton Bay, Ontario at the age of 17 (1910!)and an early association with George Cumming and his brother Nicol"

Now the other side of this was Thompson worked as a golf professional after being sent out by Cumming to Norway Point.

So which is the case, or was he doing both?

ahhhhhhh.


The more I’ve got into this, the more time I realize I don’t have to do this justice.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 10:45:44 PM by Ian Andrew »

Dave Kemp

Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2007, 11:41:26 PM »
Jeff,

It has been a number of years since I played it.  What do I remember?  Taking a ball off the ankle from an adjacent fairway and by the time we were done it was as big as my calf.  A great view of the lake from the 9th tee (Grandview as per Chris' plan).  Come to think of it, my 10 year old son played it this past summer with my father. I'll have to ask him what he thought about it when he wakes up tomorrow morning (my son that is).  ;)

Ian,

Good point about the advertisement.  After all it is exactly that, an advertisement.  Who is to say there weren't some liberties taken with the list all to attract more business.  

If I am not mistaken the list as you now have it includes only one course outside of Canada and the US (Constant Springs in Jamaica).   C&W references work in Brazil and Colombia.  Is there anything to that?

Dave

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2007, 12:53:53 AM »
Ian,

Why is Anne of Green Gables soon to be NLE?

Thanks,
Chris

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2007, 01:03:02 AM »
Ian,

Mickey Boyle’s book, "Ninety Years of Golf, An Illustrated History of Golf in Saskatchewan”, contains ten pages of details about Thompson’s activities in Regina in the late twenties. To summarize, Thompson was hired in 1928 by the City to design a 36 hole course in an area called Boggy Creek/Kings Park. Thompson first attended Regina with two assistants on September 23, 1928, and spent a few days on the property. The city approved the project on October 3, 1928, and an article in The Morning Leader on March 19, 1929, reported that Thompson had made for the city “eighteen plasticene models each more than a foot square” with work on the course expected to begin in the spring and the course ready for play during the summer of 1931. However, the depression intervened so Boyle writes, “In the fall of 1930, after work on the championship course was suspended, Park Superintendent James Craig was authorized to prepare a simplified sand greens course using the design for the shorter Thompson course. Craig soon had the sand greens ready and the Tor Hill course was opened in June of 1931. In 1983 it was redesigned by the City of Regina Parks and Recreation Department with bunkers, water hazards, irrigation and grass greens. . . The championship course Thompson had designed was completed in 1962 [called The Murray] with grass greens, turfed teeing areas and irrigated fairways . . . Total capital expenditure for the Murray stands at $160,000. This includes $6,000 for the Thompson fee, $34,000 spent in 1929 and $120,000 for a first class irrigation system, greens and tees in 1960.”

Greg

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2007, 01:51:43 AM »
Greg,

Nine holes at Tor Hill were abandoned, leaving the course with 18 holes. I am not sure whether Thompson routed a 27 hole course originally, and/or to whom those lost holes are attributed to? We returned the course to 27 holes about 4-5 years ago and routed a few holes within the old corridors that were clearly evident by the treelines. I know we do not have any Thompson plans in the office regarding this course, which I am sure would have surfaced during the expansion project. Therefore, it is hard to know how closely the plans were followed when the course was completed by James Craig, or how much Thompson exists presently.

TK
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 01:53:43 AM by Tyler Kearns »

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2007, 02:28:02 AM »
Tyler

My guess is the 36 holes designed by Thompson consisted of The Murray (the original "championship course") and the first 18 at Tor Hill (the original shorter course). I'm further guessing the nine "abandoned" holes you speak of at Tor Hill were added by the Parks department sometime after the original Thompson 18 were laid out. I think they were referred to as the Family Nine. I think Mickey Boyle is still alive and he'd know if my guesses are correct and might be able to confirm "how closely the plans were followed when the course ws completed by James Craig". One thing I think is pretty certain is that although the courses were likely routed according to Thompson's plans, the plans themselves are long lost and the green complexes and bunkering, etc., done on both the Murray and Tor Hill in the 60's and 80's respectively, could not be said to have been done in accordance with plans provided by Thompson. Again, Mickey Boyle was an aldreman and chair of the Parks committee when the Murray was completed so he might know.

Greg

Ian Andrew

Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2007, 08:39:33 AM »
Greg, Tyler,

What a great exchange of information that was.
I don't know where that leaves us on that course.
Greg, are you willing to call to ask more about it?

Chris,

They have decided, under the guidance of Tom McBroom, to build a brand new course over the top of Green Gables.

Chris Parker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2007, 11:10:44 AM »
They have decided, under the guidance of Tom McBroom, to build a brand new course over the top of Green Gables.

Really?  I'll have to get out to PEI ASAP to see what little remains of Green Gables.  McBroom?  What's wrong with the golf industry on the east coast?  They let him bury a Ross and now they're going to let him bury a Thompson!  What's next?
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2007, 06:04:11 PM »
Ian, Tyler

I spoke to Mickey Boyle today by telephone. He recalls that construction of Thompson's "championship" layout began on what would become "The Murray" but was suspended due to the depression. The course is named after an employee of the City, "Bill Murray" who Mickey says was a fanatic golfer, originally from St. Andrews, who saved the plans until finally convincing the city to complete construction in 1960. Mickey thinks the layout of "The Murray" and "Tor Hill" would be pretty faithful to the 36 holes Thompson designed. The extra nine at Tor Hill he suggests were added afterward by the City.

Ian, you might also be interested in what Mickey has to say about Bill Kinnear. If you wish to speak to Mickey, get me your email and I can forward you his phone number.

Greg

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2007, 07:46:29 PM »
Ian, Jasper opened on July 17th, 1925.  I do have a few photos of the course that are dated 1924, so I know golf was being played that year, but the official opening we use is in 1925.
How's the weather Pro?  For many years we have said Lucayan CC (Dick Wilson and Craig Wood)was opened in 1962. One of our members gave me the opening day scorecard, August 1964!  all the best, I still remember when you birdied 17 of the 45 holes at Grand Cypress in Orlando!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2007, 07:54:50 PM »
I think so much renovation was undertaken during the first three decades of the 20th century, and so little documentation exists in many cases, that it is very difficult to determine exactly what Thompson did and did not do during the period. His new courses are pretty clear -- but there seems to be a lot of 9-hole efforts, renos, total renos and other configurations out there.

Take Brantford -- clearly a Nicol design (I have the Canadian Golfer ad to prove it.) Could Stan have renovated it after? Surely. Same with Summit. Cataraqui includes nine entirely new holes, so that's pretty much entirely Thompson. London Highlands we know almost nothing about.... others are in the same boat. Problem is that many of these courses haven't done much looking into the issue either, and some, like Brantford, are listed on the Stanley Thompson Society site when they are clearly not Thompson's work.

What I'd like to know is this: Ian and co. went to Allandale this summer and Ian was floored by how intact it was. What Thompson course is out there that hardly anyone knows about, but might actually be worth playing. There is quite a list of Chris' site that I'm not familiar with...
Robert, I met Frank Locke at Burlington Springs in 1970 (he helped Larry Bunkowsky in the early days) and he told me about how he had designed the "valley holes" at Brantford.
Did Jimmie Johnson do any other courses besides Box Grove in Markham?  Did Eric Hanson do more than Markland Woods and Horsehoe?  Man I love this site, while it was down I had to watch TV and discoved Tadd.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2007, 08:48:24 PM »
Gary: I think Jimmy's sole effort was Box Grove, a handful of holes still exist. As for Hanson, I thought Horseshoe was Rene -- I didn't even know Eric worked there.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2007, 09:36:46 PM »
What about the prohibition era developments? Courses in the U.S./ Clubhouses in Canada so you could have a drink at the 19th. Wasn't the first one of those supposedly done with Ouimet at Richford Golf Club in Richford, Vermont?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2007, 10:03:01 PM »
Ian,

How much of Midvale here in East Rochester is RTJ vs Thompson?

From what I have read Thompson hired RTJ out of Cornell, set him up in Rochester and had him work on Midvale to cut his teeth. Not sure if Thompson did anything other than sign off on the design.

Durand Eastman was the next course, but I'm not sure if he was still employed by Thompson at that time.

The other course I heard he did some redesign work on was Bartlett CC in Olean NY.  Not sure what he did and if any of it is left.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2007, 10:14:05 AM »
What about the prohibition era developments? Courses in the U.S./ Clubhouses in Canada so you could have a drink at the 19th. Wasn't the first one of those supposedly done with Ouimet at Richford Golf Club in Richford, Vermont?

Adam,

I think you are right, Golf Canada did an article on this topic last year. Something like 3-4 other courses followed this model to get around prohibition in the United States.

TK

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2007, 10:39:13 AM »
Ian,

Do you know when McBroom is going to start the renovation work at Anne of Green Gables?

Thanks,
Chris

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2007, 11:30:51 AM »
The Lachute Golf Club #2 in Quebec is attributed to him.

http://www.stanleythompson.com/architecture

Chris Parker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2007, 03:55:53 PM »
Ian,

Do you know when McBroom is going to start the renovation work at Anne of Green Gables?

Chris,

Check out this link to a news release from the Tourism Industry Association of Prince Edward Island.

Chris
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2007, 04:01:40 PM »
Chris,

Thank you for the link.  That is unfortunate.  I was hoping to play it before McBroom did his work.  Looks like that is not an option!!

Chris

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Stanley Thompson’s Definative List of Designs
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2007, 06:27:50 PM »
Gents: I hear McBroom's work at Green Gables has been delayed...
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back