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Phil McDade

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2007, 01:52:49 PM »
Phil, 'C' is the Venetian by Chip Powell .

Andy:

Thanks -- I assume, then, that he's the unknown. I like his greens better than the hole!

Garland Bayley

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2007, 02:11:31 PM »
Is A by Arnold?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2007, 05:17:45 PM »


fyi, just so I have my facts straight...wasn't the 4th at Woking actually Low's rendition of the Principal's Nose at TOC?

Yes Andy- there was a recent thread on Woking. Although none of these feature a 'Principal's Nose' type bunker the strategy of all 3 seems to relect the hole.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=26953
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2007, 09:41:34 PM »
As Andy has determined C is the 5th at the Venetian Golf and River Club by Chip Powell.  He is my (relative) unknown.

Patrick,

Sorry no pictures on the ground.  I find it hard to take decent pictures of FL courses because they have so little movement and definition to them.

I haven't played the holes often enough at different times of year to attest to prevailing winds.  I'd guess that none of them have a prevailing wind in the USGA rating sense.

Phil,

Sorry for the delay, I didn't know there was a time limit on aerials.  :o  One more post and I will reveal.

And, yes Powell's greens here are outstanding.

Garland,  

A is not for Arnold.


Bill Gayne

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 09:59:11 PM »
Although I don't think he's reviled, not like Rees or Art, is A the work of Brian Silva?

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 10:11:05 PM »
Finally,

A is the 6th at Miromar Lakes, an Arthur Hills Signature course.  This would qualify as the reviled one (at least around here).

So, what did I learn from this exercise in comparative architecture 101?

That people want the distances to the centre line bunker to be within their reach so that carrying the bunker is a real option.  Multiple tee decks (and proper selection of same by the player) seems to be the answer to that.

People don't want water on the side that is considered the safe side.  Desert is better.  It escapes me why that is, except that maybe the TSN desert is mostly just hard pan from which recovery is possible.  If it was inescapable, unfindable desert like say We-Ko-Pa where you're looking at a two stroke penalty rather than one, then perhaps desert isn't better.

If there are two routes, people seem to want them to both be wide (but not with water, even on the wide side).  How much wider than the 100 yards that Hills give you on A would be ideal?

I was taken by how similar the holes looked in concept.  There are nuances in the movement of the fairways, bunkering or water around the green, and the green complex, but the basic template is there in all three.

I'm not sure, based on this one hole, why architects generate such love or hostility.  All three are reasonable quality holes based on the concept and principles.  Where do the reviled architects fall down?

Finally, not to shill too much for Venetian, it is an interesting course for that part of the country from an architecture point of view.  Clearly, Powell has been influenced by CBM. ;)  There are a number of template holes or template features used.  The holes are named, and amongst them are Alister Mackenzie, Short, Donald Ross, Elysian Fields, Punch Bowl, Valley of Sin, Cape, Biarritz, and Spectacles.  A couple, Short and Elysian Fields, don't do it for me, but the rest are interesting attempts.  What's also interesting is that WCI, in one of their residential communities, would have allowed an Architect the freedom to be creative in this way.  I'm not sure of the Doak rating scheme, but if you're in the neighbourhood of Venice, FL go a little out of your way and play this course.

On the other hand, nothwithstanding C&C's status around here, I just don't get the love for TSN.  It's a nice course, but a dreadful piece of property for a golf course.  They made something out of nothing, and the bunkers are artistic, but otherwise its subtleties of design are just too subtle to me.  If I had to choose between B and C,  I'd choose C.  If TSN as it is, was designed by an unknown architect, would it be so highly thought of?


Andy Hughes

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2007, 08:12:48 AM »
Quote
Yes Andy- there was a recent thread on Woking. Although none of these feature a 'Principal's Nose' type bunker the strategy of all 3 seems to relect the hole.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=26953

Tony, thanks. Appreciate that.


Quote
The holes are named, and amongst them are Alister Mackenzie, Short, Donald Ross, Elysian Fields, Punch Bowl, Valley of Sin, Cape, Biarritz, and Spectacles

Bryan, good discussion.  
Why are the MacKenzie and Ross holes named as they are?  Are the other holes named well (Biarritz sure looks like it!)?

Typical, I left the area and then this course appears  :-\
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Phil McDade

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2007, 10:01:34 AM »
Sean:

Bryan mentioned earlier in the thread that Art Hills' A fairway is 100 yards wide, with (I think) roughly 60 yards of fairway right of the centerline bunkers. If that's the case, I think that's plenty of room (I can't believe I'm writing this, given the usual fade/slice I hit off the tee) between the bunkers and the water. I'd agree with you if it was more like 30 yards -- that would pucker something.

Bryan -- thanks for a great thread. I'd be interested in more like this, and more information about Powell and his courses. I'm a big fan of significant movement on greens -- one of the few weaknesses of these aerial exercises! -- and I always (if it's a close call) favor one hole over another based on green contours. For me, it came down to: A had more options, and interesting options, off the tee; B had some options and some fairway movement (slight dogleg); and C looked problematic for options, because the risk seemed too great. In my book, options aren't options if the risk is too great.

But I really like those Powell green shots!

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2007, 10:45:16 AM »
Sean,

Quote
It was my understanding that this conversation was taking place from the back tees.  If you can move forward all bets are off.  I am not a huge fan of multiple tees (more than 3, maybe 4) because I think they encourage adding length to courses which almost always adds unecessary time to play.  Americans have a reputation for short attention spans so why do they want to play a course which requires 4.5 - 5 hours to play IN A CART?

I'm not sure why you think multiple decks adds to the time to play a course unless you think it encourages players to play back beyond their capabilities.  I see little point in the adding back tees at 7400 yards unless the course is a Tour stop.  But I am in favour of more forward tees.  My wife hits a ball 150 yard with her best shot - she needs courses that are firm and fast and under 5,000 yards.  So if you're going to add tees, put them forward.

Most of these courses we played in between 3.5 and 4 hours (but then my wife walks while I have to drive the required cart.  The 4.5 to 5 hour rounds are a function of the players not the length of the courses at the tips.  Americans are too focused on studying shots (putts especially), and getting yardages, and not going to their balls and not being ready to play, or only playing in order.  This, more than course length is the issue I think.

Andy,

The Tillinghast hole is so named because of bunker in his style situated about 50 yards short of the green.  Their description is

"517 Yard Par 5

'Alister MacKenzie': A long tee shot that finds the fairway will create the opportunity to reach the green in two. Shorter hitters will need to position their second shot short of the "MacKenzie Bunker" to set up the best chance for par or better."

The Ross hole has a pushup green with closely mown runoff areas on all sides.  Here is their description,

"403 Yard Par 4

'Donald Ross': Rolling topography, diagonal-carry bunkers and a crowned green evoke memories of golf architecture's "golden age." True to its classical design style, players must find the fairway to set up a medium-to-short approach shot to the crowned and gently contoured green."

If you want to check out the course, their web site is http://www.wcicommunities.com/default.asp?pageID=activities_detail&siteID=40&vid=1000&cid=1003330100113

Phil,

If you have a big fade (slice) then C is definitely going to look problematic, although you'd probably aim out left knowing you were unlikely to reach the water.  You never know, you might carve it into the right side fairway and be golden.  In any event the fairway is a total of 60 yards wide - that's a lot of room even if it doesn't look so on the aerials.  And there should be some risk off the tee for trying the more favourable side.

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2007, 10:52:28 AM »
Phil,

If you like movement in greens you'd like the ninth - called Valley of Sin.  The green site evokes the namesake hole, but is not a replica.  Imagine a green with a semicircular bowl on the front, an upper back left tier up maybe 4 feet from the bowl, and an upper back right tier that's up another two feet from the back left.  The Valley is on the green, unlike TOC, but the valley has substantially more rise.  Almost a guaranteed three putt if you're on the wrong section of green.  Judging speed with those kind of elevation changes is something most of us don't have to do very often.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2007, 10:53:54 AM »

Woking 4
Hole is shortish and plays downhill including the green
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2007, 11:11:18 AM »
Tony,

Can you use the ruler to tell how wide each side is and the carry distance?  I'm guessing it's more narrow than the American examples above.  Interestingly the narrower risky left side doesn't appear to offer any benefit on the second shot.  What was the architect thinking?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2007, 11:40:24 AM »
From the Cub Website


Par 4 - 336yds
 
Some view this short 4 as Woking’s outstanding hole. It is undoubtedly the most celebrated and, at times in the past, the most controversial. Running parallel and close to the main railway line it offers a classic risk/reward trade-off. It owes this almost entirely to the “tinkering” of Stuart Paton in the early part of the last century which resulted in the introduction of bunkers in the middle of the fairway at 230yds.  These were built on the design of the “Principal’s Nose” at St Andrews. Controversy was assured as Paton undertook the alteration during the summer vacation with minimal consultation when his fellow Committee members were gracing grouse moors or Riviera! The celebrated Times’ Golf Correspondent, Bernard Darwin -a member of Woking for 64 years - saw the 4th as “essentially a hole at which we must make up our minds and use our heads”. In short, if the player takes on the challenge and drives between bunker and railway, he/she gains the reward of a quite straightforward run-up and a real birdie chance. Take the safe line to the left of the bunker and you face a very much more difficult approach over a greenside bunker to a putting surface sloping away from you.
 

Bryan the overall width measures 62 yards.  29 to the right and 24 to the left.  This surprises me as I recall the left as ‘looking’ the safe line.  Both times I’ve fallen foul of O/B.  I also suspect that the trees have narrowed the left hand side (look at the bunker at the start of the fairway it’s now in the rough) – just my hunch can’t prove this.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2007, 06:04:21 PM »
Sean,

I guess I think the issue is not so much building multiple tees as to how to control more effectively where people play.  

Even if there is only blue, white  and red some people will play blue when they should be on white; and play white when they should be on red.  Interestingly in Scotland they seem to be effective at getting all to play from the "yellow" tees without express permission to play the competition tees.  But, then Scots don't seem to be as obsessed with scorecard yardages as do the majority of Americans.  Maybe US courses should just neglect to put out the tee blocks on the tips unless it is a competition.

Tony,

It's certainly wider than I would have thought.  Yes, 'tis odd that the "safe" side is actually narrower than the risky side.  And, the treed side looks as punitive as the OB (unless it is red staked).  I guess time and nature have a way of sometimes blunting the architect's intent.

Last time I was in England I stayed in Woking for a few days.  How could I have missed going here.  Ended up at Deal before and Saunton after.  Perhaps Marilyn was tired of my obsession while we were in Woking.  ;D  Ah well, maybe next time.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2007, 06:19:27 PM »
Love to go round Woking and some others with you.  I'm hoping it's 3rd time lucky and even hitting the bunker would be an improvement. You'll be pleased to hear that in my latest lesson my teacher addressed my 'flying left elbow'. I interupted him to say I had been made aware of what had been called a 'chickenwing' ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 06:19:55 PM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bryan Izatt

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Re:The Revered, Reviled, and Unknown
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2007, 07:11:12 PM »
Tony,

You could use my strategy.  Aim at the bunker.  I figure I may only hit 5% of my drives exactly where I aim them, so there's a 95% chance I'll hit it left or right of the bunker.  And hopefully not more than 30 yards to either side.

Good to know that other, more professional, eyes can see what I saw.  But, we all have unique aspects to our swings. Just look at Furyk.  And take heart, Tiger uses the chicken wing when he's trying to hit a hard cut.  Just tell your teacher you were emulating Tiger.  ;D

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