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Jim Nugent

A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« on: January 12, 2007, 05:53:41 AM »
I thought an Alps hole requires a blind 2nd shot over a hill to the green.  For example, one of the sites recommended here in GCA for definitions of the template holes (Silverleaf Designs) defines Alps as follows:

      "The Alps term refers to a mountain or tall hill that must be attacked on the approach shot into a green that is fronted by a deep cross bunker. From the fairway, an Alps style hole has a blind shot, or approach into the green complex itself."

So it surprised me that Ran's new Yeaman's Hall profile calls the par 4 fifth hole an "Alps", even though the hole is flat as a pancake.  There is no hill, no mountain.  The 2nd shot is not blind in any way.  This is not merely the hole's name, either.  Ran's description refers to the course as containing an Alps hole.    

What gives?  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 05:54:49 AM by Jim Nugent »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 06:41:41 AM »
I absolutely want to play Yeamans someday, and the updated course profile has great pics in "dormant" season. Some on here could and probably have accused me of being a MacRaynor "butt boy", but I think that Ran may drink a little tooooo much Yeamans Hall juice!  ;) I have always questioned the naming of the 3rd hole at Mountain Lake as an Alps, which probably has more elevation change than Yeaman's. Of course when golf industry titans like Ran and Tom Doak call it an Alps, it must be an Alps.  ;)

Amazingly, Ran has not played Mountain Lake and I would be interested to hear from others how ML compares with Yeamans.

By the way, I heard Faldo last night making fun of "The Eden" hole at the Raynor course in Hawaii (forget the name) where the PGA is playing this week. Basically how the palm trees reminded him of St Andrews!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 06:51:09 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 07:46:11 AM »
Mike S:  Did you really forget the name of the course in Hawaii, or did you just say that because you didn't want to try to spell it?   :D  It's Waialae CC, I think.

And, it wasn't my idea that these flattish holes were "Alps" holes, at least a couple of them were still named as such on the scorecard, presumably from opening day.  Macdonald told Raynor that the Alps was one of the most important hole types and he tried to do one everywhere, even on flat ground ... but he didn't necessarily see the point of building a hill to make it blind, for him it was about having a forced carry over a bunker right in front of the green.  Don't forget, Raynor never saw the real thing in Scotland.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 09:31:06 AM »
There are plenty of these. Another one that comes to mind is Camargo.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 09:39:17 AM »
Camargo came immediately to my mind, also. But there may be more to Camargo's story, I think. Perhaps Mr. Doak will elaborate.

#7 at Camargo is referred to as "Alps." The approach is patially blind (one can see the top of the flagstick) and there is the cross bunker, though there is no hill fronting the green complex.

There is a large mound fronting #16, Double Plateau. I am not aware that this mound would normally be associated with this template.

Any comments, Tom?

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

ForkaB

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 09:39:40 AM »
Even worse, the "Road" hole at NGLA doesn't have a road! :o

BigEdSC

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 09:40:46 AM »
The blind aspect of #5 at YHC is the high back part of the bunker in front of the green there.  Standing out in any part of the fairway there, you really can't see too many parts of the green.  In some parts, you can see the back of the green, but if the pin is in the middle or front of the green, you'll only see the pin.  It is a great approach shot.  So technically, you can split hairs about it.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 09:51:54 AM »
Ran did say in his write-up:
By 1925, though, Raynor had already heard the complaints from a number of memberships about the blind aspect of his Alps holes to the point where here at Yeamans, he merely put in the front Alps bunker and didn't bother with the blind aspect of a conventional Alps.

PS Mike, I agree, the pictures with the dormant grasses makes the course look terrific.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 09:52:32 AM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 10:09:20 AM »
Later in his career Raynor began using the term "Alps bunkering) - meaning some sort of crossbunkering short of the green - basically referring to the green complex.

Where there was no "hill" (Waialea/Yeamans etc) I would think they or the clubs wanted to "build" a mountain - it would look pretty stupid, hence the "green-complex" term.

He/they also often referred to "Road hole" green complexes rather than the entire concept of 17-St Andrews.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 10:09:51 AM »

And, it wasn't my idea that these flattish holes were "Alps" holes, at least a couple of them were still named as such on the scorecard, presumably from opening day.  Macdonald told Raynor that the Alps was one of the most important hole types and he tried to do one everywhere, even on flat ground ... but he didn't necessarily see the point of building a hill to make it blind, for him it was about having a forced carry over a bunker right in front of the green.

As they say in Australia.  That's not an Alps Hole... this is an Alps Hole!*


Reading Tom Doak's post about Raynor not having visited Scotland, perhaps he did not fully appreciate how small a rise is required on linksland to create a blind shot. When I first visited St. Andrews, I was struck by the fact that an 8 ft rise might as well be 30 ft in terms of how difficult it was to determine the correct line of play.

If you go by the template of the 17th at Prestwick, it seems both the drive and the approach should be a 'blind' shot i.e. you can't see where your ball stops. On the second shot this can be achieved when the level of the green beyond the bunker is just a few feet above your eyeline in the fairway.

* Perhaps not, as the bunker in the front of the green was converted to a grass bunker due to extreme wind conditions. An archival photo shows a sand bunker was in play after the war, but filled in some time during the 60s. The fact that Bob Harrison from Great White Shark did not reinstitute it as a sand bunker when they revetted the other 'at risk' bunkers during the 90's was the right decision.

The pitch from a fluffy lie  is not a common shot at NSW. Due to the slope of the green it is perhaps the most challenging short game shot on the course.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 10:16:49 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 11:54:29 AM »
Camargo came immediately to my mind, also. But there may be more to Camargo's story, I think. Perhaps Mr. Doak will elaborate.

There is a large mound fronting #16, Double Plateau. I am not aware that this mound would normally be associated with this template.

Jim, that sounds like #17 at Yale, which has a double plateau green with a Principal's Nose bunker/mound complex maybe 60 yards out in front of it.

Jim Nugent

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2007, 01:10:25 PM »
I guess the question is, what is the essence of an Alps hole?  We've had some similar discussions recently about the Road Hole and the Redan.  An Alps without a hill seems to me like a Sahara without a sand trap.  




Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2007, 01:18:07 PM »
I guess the question is, what is the essence of an Alps hole?  An Alps without a hill seems to me like a Sahara without a sand trap.  

Perhaps blindness (in every sense of the word) is determined on a different scale in Scotland...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:19:34 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2007, 01:38:11 PM »
I thought of Camargo, too, but though the approach to the crest in front of the green is pretty flat, the green IS in a hollow hidden well below the horizon, with a big bunker across the front just as at Prestwick.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2007, 01:48:09 PM »

In my younger, less educated days I came across my first alps hole while playing stevinson ranch in california.  The version there has a big massive hill in front of the green like NGLA. And its gotta be the highest point in the whole central valley. :)

Anyhow at the time, I thought to myself, who in the hell would design a hole like this.  >:(  I'm 100 yards from the green in the fairway and can't see the green much less the pin.

Now I think back and realize what a treat it was to play such a fine and unique golf hole.

Mike_Cirba

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2007, 01:55:29 PM »
Apparently, the idea of an Alps hole without a large, blinding mound in front of the green goes pretty far back.

Stolen from the infamous "Merion 10th" thread, the following is from a 1914 article in Golf Illustrated by Robert Leslie of Merion;

“ The tenth hole has its tee far back in the woods and its green has for background a high hill covered with grass, and resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick;  in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green.

It seems clear to me from that description that Mr. Lesley is saying that the determining factor in a hole being "Alps-like" is not the hill behind the green, but instead "a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green.", as Tom Doak mentions above.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:56:38 PM by MikeC »

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2007, 02:34:01 PM »
Bill McB:

The mound on the 6th at Camargo is probably 8 feet tall and bocks the right 50-75% of the green. It is fronted by a rather large bunker and the green is immediately behind it. If the bunker were between the mouind and the hole it would be (IMO) textbook Alps.

The 7th at Camargo more closely resembles a punchbowl. I believe that Raynor was known to combine the two hole types.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2007, 02:40:05 PM »

Even worse, the "Road" hole at NGLA doesn't have a road! :o

There is no "Road" hole at NGLA.

# 7 is named St Andrews.

But, it does have a road that runs through it, and one behind the green  ;D

Jim Nugent

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2007, 03:05:54 PM »
Mike, do you agree with Robert Leslie?  

I don't pick up that Doak has said that is the defining feature.  Can you clarify, Tom?  

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2007, 04:48:41 PM »
The Alps hole at Fox Meadow is a drivable par 4 that is flat except that it has a big, presumably man-made, mound to the right front of the green.  The one time I played the hole I hit my drive into the mound.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2007, 05:09:01 PM »
Bill McB:

The mound on the 6th at Camargo is probably 8 feet tall and bocks the right 50-75% of the green. It is fronted by a rather large bunker and the green is immediately behind it. If the bunker were between the mouind and the hole it would be (IMO) textbook Alps.

The 7th at Camargo more closely resembles a punchbowl. I believe that Raynor was known to combine the two hole types.

Jim, I was just trying to point out another example of a par 4 with mounding out in front of a double plateau green.  That's the description of #17 at Yale but it's definitely an Alps hole.  The Alps hole there is #3, or is it #12?

Here's the 17th:



Is this similar to the hole at Camargo?  The green is indeed a double plateau.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 05:40:01 PM by Bill_McBride »

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2007, 05:17:07 PM »
Bill,

By the scordcard names the second at Yale is call "blind" and the Alps hole is the 12th.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2007, 05:41:21 PM »
Bill,

By the scordcard names the second at Yale is call "blind" and the Alps hole is the 12th.

Right you are, I was going by memory, a big mistake!  #3 is actually an Alps type hole but #12 is the real deal with the full cross bunker.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2007, 05:52:19 PM »
The original Alps at CC Fairfield had barely an elevation change and there is Alps bunkering on the original 1st at Wanumetonomy (now the 10th) on what is a downhill hole. The bunkers are about 270 off the tee.

Anthony


Geoffrey Childs

Re:A FLAT Alps hole??? So says Ran...
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 06:15:48 PM »
The Alps at Yale is #12.  It is the best work that Roger Rulewich did at the course.  #3 is mistaken for the alps due to its blind second (blindness was restored to #12) but in fact it was a double punchbowl.






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