Speaking of Double Doglegs ...

[Mike Benham]

Today's AOTD has one, which begs us to debate the virtues of said design ... "gimmick" or "good design"

What impact does a "DDL" have on strategy, risk and reward for the golfer?

Does a DDL have to have a "left" and a "right", or can it have 2 of one, such as the 16th at Olympic Lake.

Using the 16th at Olympic Lake as the starting point, it is a DDL, in my opinion, because it requires that you shape your shots based on the design of the hole.  Uncharacteristically, as the 16th goes left, the best shot is a straight or slight fade off of the tee, and a longish straight or fade second shot so as you don't get stuck behind the trees on the second leg left.

The length of the 16th is a huge factor in the risk and reward for a par 5, and for a dogleg, offers no "reward" for cutting the dogleg.

Coupled with a well bunkered green offering many blind hole placements makes the 16th a very challenging hole, and definetly not a gimme par ...

[THuckaby2]

Hmmm... I guess it depends on what "is" is...  

I mean, how do you want to define double-dogleg.  Oh yeah, 16 at OClub-Lakeside is a damn fine hole, tough as nails.  But I wouldn't call it a double dogleg, to me two draws would do just fine there to set up the third.  Interesting thought though and if in fact a hole requires straight-fade-draw or combinations of such, then yeah, I can see calling it a double dogleg.

Maybe I've just butchered 16 OClub so bad, I have it all wrong!  This is quite likely...  

I've always kinda liked the double dog-leg at Poppy Hills - I believe it's #4.  You go straight, right, left.  There is a way to cut it  - it takes two enormous shots - but it can be done.  Absent that it takes two precise shots to set up the third, and the 2nd shot has great interest, a rarity in 3-shot par 5's....

TH

[Ric the Great]

Double Dogleg?  How 'bout the Triple Linde?

[Mike Benham]

TH -

Yep, the 4th at Poppy is definetely a DDL and the layup for the third shot requires good accuracy and execution.  My problem with that hole is that the green is to darn big.  I have never seen anyone try for the green in two (from back tees) so I would like to see a smaller target more appropriate for the short irons going into the green.

And the 16th at Olympic, well it just keeps on going left, and your penalize yourself when you don't leave your second shot on the correct side (right) of the fairway.

Interesting to note that this thread that deals with the architecture, design and strategy of a golf hole, is not getting more comments from the GCA patrons.  Probably due to the fact that it does not involve a list, mention gender equality, Gloria Vanderbilt or Johnny Miller.

[Dan Grossman]

How about #6 at WW Pine Barrens?

http://www.worldwoods.com/pinebarrens/pinebarrens.htm

I would think that this would be a great DDL.  The hole IS reachable with the correct drive, a long hook down the left side.  But if you don't do that, you must play an approach out to the left to avoid the trees sticking out on the right.  You must also hit the second shot the correct distance, if going left as too much distance will put you in the trees.  

I have not played Poppy or Olympic Lake, so it is difficult for me to compare this hole against those two.  However, I like this hole because clearly a draw / fade combination gets you to the green in two.  And if you choose not to go for the green in two, you must play to the left side of the fairway on your second shot.

[THuckaby2]

DG - great call re 6 at WW-PB.  It's been 5 years at least since I played there so the memory is fading but that diagram brought it back... oh yes, great DDL most definitely - you described it perfectly.

MB - re 6 Poppy Hills, I've seen people TRY to get there in two from back tees... I've yet to see anyone make it!  But you're right, that green could use some down-sizing... I never thought of that.  

And why this thread got so few responses... hmmm... seems to me you nailed that!  

TH

[Gary_Nelson]

There's a DDL in Michigan at a muni called Brae Burn.  It is the "signature" hole and is nicknamed "the monster".   It is a par 5 with a 90 degree left then a 90 degree right.  The pond on the left prevents cutting too much of the corner on the tee shot and the forest on the right protects the corner on the second shot.  It's just three straight iron shots to get home.  I suppose it is a pretty good challenge for those trying to get home in two but it's a looooong way over the pond.

The forest has been cut back a bit in recent years allowing more room off the tee before you run thru the fairway.

Although not the toughest in the world, this "monster" hole is a good example of the design/architecture of a hole getting repeated attention by the golfing massess... which isn't a bad thing in my book.

Gary

[Ed_Baker]

Mike,

The lack of response may be due to the DD being fairly uncommon.

Honestly, I have been trying to think of an example on a course I've played for two days, nada.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

A DDL has to have a left and a right and most definitely NOT too of either one! It can, however, alternatively, have a right and a left!!

When the DDL has a left and a right (or even the alternative) the golfer out of necessity needs to get into some strategic "tacking" (a rare but extremely important analogy to sailing) which is something very prized in architecture and in golf! All this in contigent upon the wind, of course, and actually if the wind happens to be from the wrong direction the hole and the entire concept is very poor but if the wind is from the correct direction the hole is excellent!

If an architect gets into designing two of one way like a right/right or a left/left he runs the risk of making golfers dizzy which is something in architecture that's always been frowned upon by the true cognesenti!

Of course this fear of making golfers dizzy was something that was mentioned by A.W. Tillinghast who invented the DDL!

And for us inveterate architectural analysts that only begs the question of whether Tillinghast thought up the whole DDL concept in the morning or much later in the afternoon (if you catch my drift)!! (Or is it tack? Oh well, I never was very good at sailing)!!

[Mike Benham]

TEPaul,

I would have caught your "drift" if you would have mentioned "Port" and "Starboard" ...

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I can see Tillie getting some port into his flask but I'm not sure even he could get any starboard in there--but who knows--he was a very creative guy, particularly later in the day when his flask was near drained, when he had trouble balancing himself on his shooting stick and when he got much more animated and creative!

I have it from a good source that the double dogleg was actually a big single dogleg but Tillie happened to be seeing double that afternoon so he designed and built the thing to go both ways! And so the DDL was born!