Which courses in the country have a shot at number one..

[Mike_Cirba]

Saddam Hussein is dead, the Eagles are in the playoffs, and John Kavanaugh is channeling Hemingway.

2007 looks to be a year of pleasant surprises.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John, you have to tell what said wind required you to hit to the 13th at Rustic. It giveth and taketh away.

I don't keep stats but I believe that on the 13th at Rustic is was the first time in my 39 years of golf that I hit driver, 3 wood, driver on a par 5 to reach the green in regulation.  I think it would be safe to say that there are many first time ever shots to be had out there.

[David Stamm]

John, you have to tell what said wind required you to hit to the 13th at Rustic. It giveth and taketh away.

I don't keep stats but I believe that on the 13th at Rustic is was the first time in my 39 years of golf that I hit driver, 3 wood, driver on a par 5 to reach the green in regulation.  I think it would be safe to say that there are many first time ever shots to be had out there.

That was a heck of a par if I may say so.  

[Steve Lapper]

Saddam Hussein is dead, the Eagles are in the playoffs, and John Kavanaugh is channeling Hemingway.

2007 looks to be a year of pleasant surprises.  

And you are out $5!!

[Mike_Cirba]

And you are out $5!!

Hahaha...yes, I know.  

An upset by the Emperor was unlikely, but I had to go with the hefty odds.  

Sometimes my heart rules my head.  

[Joel_Stewart]

That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

Number 1 what?  The hardest course, the prettiest course, the best conditioned course, the best overall experience course?

John: I've had those type of encounters at courses and you have to enjoy them and treasure them but its that type of over stimulation that leads to Shadow Creeks being ranked in the top 10's.

Having played most of Golf Digest's top 100 and noting that the top 10 rarely change, its the top 5 or 6 that are head and shoulders above the rest.

As for Olympic Club, and I'm biased being a member but I've always thought that it should be top 15 and lucky if it ever get back to #9 which was its high point.  With the current management and the direction the maintance program is going, it will be lucky to stay top 25.

[John Kavanaugh]

That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

Number 1 what?  The hardest course, the prettiest course, the best conditioned course, the best overall experience course?

I'd go with the best overall experience course.  Joel, tell me..what about Riviera's location, history, ambience, shot values or overall strength of architectural design would prevent it from being the best course in the country on any given day when everything is hitting on all cylinders.  I have talked to people today who have not heard of Riviera and asked me about my trip and where I golfed.  I told them it just may be the finest course in the country..I ask you..Why not..

[Joel_Stewart]

John:

Its a valid point, the first time I played Riveria I was paired with a member who happened to be checking in at the same time.  It was Gabe Kaplan.  Another time I played and was paired with Sugar Ray Leonard.  Loads of fun.   The golf course is great, I could nit pick about a few holes but it would be a real reach.  We could talk about what Fazio has done which would be very valid on why it should not be #1 or for that fact top 10.

If I had to pick a golf course I would play over Riveria I would pick,

Oakmont
Cypress Point
Pine Valley
NGLA
Fishers Island

and probably a few others.

I bet you played it when the kikuyu was down.  Try playing Riveria when the rough is long and be prepared for a long hard day!

[Glenn Spencer]

Merion could be.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

How much of your opinion is influenced by the "WOW" factor ?

The euphoria that comes with a first time play.

How much of you opinion is based on your play that day ?

After playing Riviera a dozen or so times do you think that you'd temper your opinion ?

What about Riviera's architecture stood out for you ?
Which features, which holes ?

Is it better than CPC, Olympic, Pebble ?

[Rick Shefchik]

What I really want to know is, if you'd been a foot onto the green on #6, would you have felt cheated/pissed off/frustrated/wronged because you weren't allowed to hit a flop shot?

[Anthony Butler]

Merion could be.

They all have something that prevents them from reaching perfection, but the only course I have been completely stunned by is Cypress Point. It is truly an incredible site that still reflects the vision of one designer supported by a group of like-minded people that has only gotten better with the improved conditioning practices of today.

[wsmorrison]

I agree with Pat.  I don't think it is possible to make objective comparative decisions based on a single visit.  Wow factors are certainly going to be heavily weighted by most people in such a situation.

Anthony,

Cypress Point (I've never been on the grounds) does have a spectacular site (I've peaked through the hedges) but it is not unique in reflecting the vision of one designer supported by a group of like-minded people that has improved with age.  So out of that statement I am left with the uniqueness being the spectacular site.  What of the architecture and test of golf left you stunned?

I'm not saying it isn't the best course in the world for many, but an exercise like this cannot be universal.  It is subjective and an artifact of the courses played or studied by each individual.

Of the courses I've played, Shinnecock Hills is above everything else, frankly by a lot.  I love the naturalism, offset angles, use of wind and triangulation and one of the greatest collection of greens in golf.  Of course the views aren't bad either (slightly edited to show upcoming removal of some structures).



Now, I've been there many times and have closely studied the course.  I know every inch of the property and know how much finer the course will be and play when the greens are restored to their former dimensions.  Fall-offs and bunkers will be much more in play with pin positions that are currently not available due to green shrinkage.  Even greater strategy off the tee will be demanded on what is currently the best test of golf in my mind.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Fazio once said that he could think of about 200 courses that could be #2 but there is only one #1 and that is Pine Valley.  

I also remember a guy once telling me that he thought Bay Hill was a 10 and the best golf course in the world.  When asked how many great courses he had seen, he said he only played about three or four on the current Top 100 lists but he was sure the others couldn't be better than Bay Hill.  

Most golfers perspectives are very much swayed by what they have seen and experienced first hand and/or who is their favorite architect.  When asked by people what is the best course I've ever played, I tell them I don't know but that I have played about 15-20 that I consider 10's  

[John Kavanaugh]

What I really want to know is, if you'd been a foot onto the green on #6, would you have felt cheated/pissed off/frustrated/wronged because you weren't allowed to hit a flop shot?

Rick,

No...For one I could not hit the same monster flop off of the tight green surface or even a chipping area.  I had missed the green enough that I had a perfect fluffy lie in what could be called rough.  This was a full swing flop that if I was in your back yard would have cleared your house, took one hop and rung the door bell.

My host had the shot that you mentioned and played reverse Daytona bank shot off of the bunker bank.  He had perfect line but only lacked a bit of speed.  There are several putting options available to get around the bunker which makes the flop off of the green a poor choice for anyone but the touring pro.

[TEPaul]

To me Riviera probably is right up there near the top as a true laboratory of architectural excellence. I think the reason for that is simply what Thomas pulled off on that rather unusual site. In other words he pulled off a laundry list of fascinating architectural stuff that I wonder if anyone else would've even thought of, much less figured out how to do as he did.

I guess this is why I suspect that Thomas may've had the most creative architectural imagination golf architecture has ever known.

What he did on a basically flat bland space with #10 is ample evidence of that.

But would Riviera ever be ranked the top or the best course in America?

I'd seriously doubt that but that's another story.  

For people really interested in some of the finer points of golf course architecture Riviera is just a can't miss deal. If you studied all the great architecture in the world and you missed Riviera I think you'd be missing at least a whole credit or two and you should never be allowed to graduate.  

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony,

Cypress Point (I've never been on the grounds) does have a spectacular site (I've peaked through the hedges) but it is not unique in reflecting the vision of one designer supported by a group of like-minded people that has improved with age.  So out of that statement I am left with the uniqueness being the spectacular site.  What of the architecture and test of golf left you stunned?

Actually the day I was there it was not particularly windy, but the thing I liked about it beyond it's natural charms is that it rewarded precision without unduly punishing mistakes (as opposed to the bounces off the edges of greens at PV into the surrounding scrub resulting in another triple)... at the end of the round you could make the case that it gets a little more heroic–16 & 17 will crush you if your execution doesn't match your line of play... although this change in strategy seems to match the grandeur of your surrounds. The natural flow of the course to this grand climax is something I appreciate.

Also, from my reading of the Shackleford book, I think you could make the argument that Mackenzie, supported by Sam Morse & Marion Hollins got to see his vision properly executed and that it remains largely intact today. There's not a lot of other courses from this period that have photos of Mackenzie with his De Soto by the side of many greens. His other two world top 10 courses (RM and Augusta) he never got to see finished.

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

How much of your opinion is influenced by the "WOW" factor ?

The euphoria that comes with a first time play.

My opinion is based on the perfect conditions of the day and all the events of the week both before and after my round.  It was the best nine day run of luck in my life starting with BBQ in Hope, Arkansas on day one to getting an exit row seat on my last flight home.  I agree completely that you can not form a proper opinion when in a state of euphoria.  I thought I made it clear that I am only saying that given the right set of circumstances that Riviera deserves a shot at being number one on any given day at any given time.

I do believe that if I was a student of architecture that the WOW factor of Riviera would increase with additional plays.  I have heard that Ben Crenshaw has called it the best designed course of all time, Hogan was a huge fan and the course is in Doak's 31 Flavors.  It ain't chopped liver and you can see the ocean from the course if that matters.

How much of you opinion is based on your play that day ?

I played very poorly score wise but hit some fantastic shots solely because of the opportunities the design provided.  For what ever reason I have developed this low trap hard running fade that worked very well with the kikuyu that I had heard so much about.  I never saw the velcro effect because I either chipped with a 5 wood from 25 yds out or hit flops onto the green.  I thought it was an excellent playing surface for my game and that did influence my opinion.  I shot a minimum of 10 strokes over my handicap if that matters but we did have a 3 to 4 club wind.

After playing Riviera a dozen or so times do you think that you'd temper your opinion ?

I would say yes since I am a shallow individual who often takes for granted the many gifts that have been given to me.  Just last night I chose to hang out at the golf course having beers and telling stories with my buds when my lovely wife of 25 years waited at home.  I would not have made the same choice earlier in our relationship.  

What about Riviera's architecture stood out for you ?
Which features, which holes ?

I would love to see a series of threads like George Pazin's on Oakmont describing each hole at Riviera.  I even now own a copy of Shackleford's book and need to do a review before I answer such an important question.  I will say that I do believe that the 18th hole is the best 18th hole I have ever seen or played.

Is it better than CPC, Olympic, Pebble ?

I have not played CPC or Pebble but do believe that they could be number one on any given day.  I have played Olympic and given the fact that it is located in one of the finest cities in the world I have to say that I would give it a shot.  I don't know what it is about me but the day I played the course was firm and fast on a beautiful warm winter day.  If everyone could have my luck we might have 25 to 30 courses that have number one potential and Olympic is right up there.

[JESII]

 If everyone could have my luck we might have 25 to 30 courses that have number one potential and Olympic is right up there.

Hence my response in post #1 on this thread...do you agree or disagree?

[John Kavanaugh]

the same number as do today...whatever that number is.

I have to say that I don't quite understand the above riddle.  I do think a course needs a minimum amount of architectural and historical significance to be number one.  25 to 30 courses is probably a safe number if not a bit of a stretch on the outside limit.  It would be a rare day in February when Pine Valley is number one.  I'd like to see a rating forecast that predicts the best course in the country on a daily or weekly basis.  Riviera in January before the LA Open is a natural choice much like ANGC on the Sunday before the start of practice for the Masters would be sweet.  I just believe that number one moves day to day with maybe a very few select courses being able to sustain a long run.

[Tom Huckaby]

I just believe that number one moves day to day with maybe a very few select courses being able to sustain a long run.

Eureka!  And this was the point I made in my first post in this thread.... glad to see you've come around to the proper way of thinking.  

[Sean_A]

the same number as do today...whatever that number is.

I have to say that I don't quite understand the above riddle.  I do think a course needs a minimum amount of architectural and historical significance to be number one.  25 to 30 courses is probably a safe number if not a bit of a stretch on the outside limit.  It would be a rare day in February when Pine Valley is number one.  I'd like to see a rating forecast that predicts the best course in the country on a daily or weekly basis.  Riviera in January before the LA Open is a natural choice much like ANGC on the Sunday before the start of practice for the Masters would be sweet.  I just believe that number one moves day to day with maybe a very few select courses being able to sustain a long run.

John

Would you say the #1 course of a few select courses should be playable all year round?  Is this what you mean by Pine Valley not #1 in February?

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

I'm saying that number one changes day to day and maybe in the case of Shinnecock and National from morning to afternoon.  Given the nature of my general dislike of people it may even change from tee time to tee time.  Playing behind or in front of the wrong group can spoil a day just enough for me to keep a course from being the very best.

I was just thinking that Shadow Creek on Super Bowl Sunday has a shot at being the best course in the country on that day.

[JESII]

I misunderstood the fluid calendar ranking perspective...I was looking at it in terms of taking the best day of the year at a given course and the best set of circumstances...and then wondering why that would add to or subtract from the list of courses that today are concievably #1 prospects. 25 to 30 seems reasonable in my criteria, but might be low in yours if you ask me. 100 - 200 would seem to have a shot at being #1 on a given day in the course of the year.

[JESII]

Which courses will be in contention for #1 on February 4th this year?