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Jeff Doerr

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S or reverse S
« on: January 07, 2007, 01:17:13 PM »
Question:

Does a "S" or "Reverse S" hole provide the most interest in shot making?

S -  a hole that calls for a draw off the tee and a fade to the green.

Reverse S - a hole that calls for a fade off the tee and a draw to the green. (right handed golfers of course...)

*What are the best examples of this?

Kapalua #6 (Jordan's thread) seems to want a fade to the right side for the layup, but a draw into the green to fight the left to right slope.

La Purisima #15 is a very nice par five that asks for draw off the tee and fade for the second.

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Tom_Doak

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2007, 01:21:46 PM »
Jeff:

There are tons of holes at the TPC at Sawgrass which fit that general shape -- 1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 15, and 16.  It is a favorite of Pete Dye's.
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ed_getka

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2007, 01:23:19 PM »
Jeff,
  Interesting terminology for that type of hole. Have you seen that term before? I haven't seen that term before, but it fits very well. I don't think any one type of hole is MOST interesting. It is the combination of a variety of interesting holes that is more compelling to me. I wouldn't want to see S holes throughout, and ultimately IMO it is the greens that provide the most interest.
   A couple of my favorite holes here in NorCal are the S/reverse S type you mention.
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Jeff Doerr

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2007, 01:46:07 PM »
Next questions:

Does anyone know of a template term for this (Ed's question - no answer from me)?

Does anyone have pictures of a straight hole example of this? It seems to me that slope or hazards can make a seemingly straight hole play best with two shots curved in differing directions. I've not played TOC, NGLA or most of the couses that give names to templates.
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ed_getka

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 02:06:42 PM »
Jeff,
   I suppose there is a straightaway hole like this, but it is the diagonal aspect of your approach to where the ball is going that is dictating the ballflight. The best example I can think of is a course near me called Adobe Creek. You tee off with water/ESA down the right side, and the tee is pointing you at bunkers down the left, so the obvious play is to fade off the tee. Then the water/ESA cuts in front of the green and comes down the left side of the hole. Here the draw feels like the safest, most natural shot shape.
    Another aspect of that can set up a feel for shot shape are bunkers en echelon, which again is a diagonal feature.
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Ron Farris

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 02:13:33 PM »
Calling for a particular shot off a tee is often quite different than what golfers actually do.  I honesty find it hard to fade a ball, especially with clubs that are designed to avoid such a shot.  I grew up in the sand hills of nebraska so my backswing bearly gets above my shoulders :), and thus the lack of a ball moving to the right.  

However, I have built many holes where I have envisioned a fade off the tee and a hooked shot into the green.  Most golfers do not see an "S" or any other required shot for a hole, but architects and designers see all kinds of weird things on holes.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 02:16:35 PM »
Would you call it a double dog-leg?

12th Swinley Forest
12th Beau Desert
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Jeff Doerr

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 04:08:32 PM »
Mark,

Are the holes at Swinley and Beau par 5s?

Although I posted a par 5, I was mostly thinking of the subtle par 4 holes in my post.

The posts #6 Kapalua and Random Bunkering got me thinking. Does a hole that gives you one shot in your comfort zone and one out of your comfort zone provide some of the best values and pleasures in play?

I think the bunkering thread had Tom commenting on placement that challenges different players on different holes. The subtle S or Reverse S, to me, seems to do that all in a one hole setting.

So, I think double dog-leg does describe it some, but there must be some other term for that more straight away hole that demands or asks for the reverse of the previous shot.
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Phil McDade

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 05:34:03 PM »
A recent thread of Bethpage Black's 4th vs. 5th highlighted the S-like nature of the 5th. Isn't the Road Hole at TOC the original version of this? (Fade off tee, draw into tight green.)
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Jon Spaulding

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 07:50:52 PM »
Not my favorite course, but the par 5-5th at PGA West Stadium is a great example. A very simple hole, but quite stressful!

Purisma 15 is certainly a good call.
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paul cowley

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 09:04:52 AM »
Jeff....what you describe as 's' types of holes are what I call Curves of Charm hole layouts.... which I use frequently, especially for conceptual hole layout when routing on relatively featureless sites. I also use the 'c' and 'j' curves.

The 's' works best for straight holes and helps tee placement as they are off set according to the degree of curvature.

This type of layout also works well as it depends less on fixed turn points or doglegs......instead these points migrate according to the distance the hole is being played from.

I wish I could draw these here instead of fumbling with words.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:07:18 AM by paul cowley »
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David_Tepper

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 11:41:21 AM »
The most famous S par-4 I know of is #14 "Foxy" at Royal Dornoch. One of the great, natural, unbunkered holes in golf.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 11:41:40 AM by David_Tepper »
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AndrewB

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Re:S or reverse S
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 11:49:35 AM »
The first two shots on 8 West at Tillinghast's Ridgewood Country Club in NJ are a reverse S/double dogleg.  This winter the back tee has actually been moved 20-25 yards to the right, slightly reducing the amount of draw needed from the tee if one wants to get on the left half of the fairway for a better angle.  The change actually will likely encourage more players to try the shot and challenge the left trees and rough, since I don't think anyone but me regularly did try that shot before.
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