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Patrick_Mucci

Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2007, 12:17:05 AM »

I think there are problems world wide, but at least you in the US know there are no global warming issues because your President tells you so.  Our PM is hardly going to disagree with him.

Why don't you ask the residents of Denver what they think about global warming and how it's affected them this winter.

Long Island was once covered by glaciers millions of years ago, long before industrialization.

What caused them to melt ?

The Bush administration ?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 12:25:54 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2007, 03:26:02 AM »
Lou,

Why should you be surprised that liberal extremists try to blame everything they can on Bush?  The conservative extremists blamed lots of ridiculous things on Bill Clinton, though that grew harder to do as Bush's presidency combined with control of the Congress and the Supreme Court left little room for blaming anything on the democrats as the years went on.

Perhaps Rove's much anticipated "October surprise" that never seemed to happen was actually to let the democrats win back the Congress, so the republican candidates in 2008 would have something to run against other than Bush's legacy?

Sorry, I tend to be pretty neutral and dislike both parties equally, but I've got it out for republicans tonight after having an O'Reilly wanna-be bending my ear for an hour at dinner about how democrats are already to blame for weak holiday spending before they even took office, not to mention how he's also apparently decided that if we achieve anything less than total victory (whatever that is) in Iraq it will be the democrats fault for encouraging the insurgents by failing to provide unquestioning support for Bush and Rumsfeld.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2007, 04:16:42 AM »
Doug

Am I to believe that you really listened to O'Reilly for an hour ?

Most liberals I know, and love:  (Webster) def. 1) generous - 2) ample; abundant - 3) not literal or strict - 4) favoring reform or progress - n. one who favors reform or progress ----- will not listen to another point of view, much less read Investor's Business Daily "Issues and Insights".

Great !!

Willie

Mark Pearce

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Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2007, 05:31:43 AM »
Why do the USA not just sign up to Kotyo?

Matthew,

Currently neither the US nor Australia have ratified the treaty.  Also, while China and India have signed the treaty they are exempt from the carbon emission goals and I know this is an issue for both the US and Australia.

Even Al Gore in 1998 opposed ratification as long as developing nations, China and India were exempt from carbon emission reduction goals!  BTW, while the US is the biggest carbon polluter in the world today, by 2030 China will far and away be the biggest polluter in the world.

There is plenty of detailed reading available on the Kyoto Protocol  that a google search should help you find in no time.
Chris,

Is it a coincidence that the only country in the world with a larger carbon footprint per head of population than the US is the only other western nation not to ratify Kyoto?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2007, 05:39:38 AM »
The really depressing thing about this thread is that, whilst if global warming or climate change is a reality then it is an issue which, unless addressed rapidly, could cause enormous harm to the planet and create serious difficulties for our children and grandchildren in the US it is reduced to a party political bun fight.  How very sad that the leaders of the western world can't rise above the whole democrat/republican nonsense once in a while on an important issue.

The other sad reflection is that at least one side of this argument expresses views that only show an interest in the effect on the US economy.  As leaders of the western world and as the only remaining superpower it behoves you to shoulder some responsibility for the rest of the world.

My view is that climate change is a reality and I've spoken to a couple of leading scientists on this, one of whom was conducting research sponsored by an oil company.  But whether that's right or wrong I'd hope that the level of debate could rise above party bickering.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2007, 07:46:09 AM »
Guys
I think I can handle this global warming by wearing the new microfibers....but we need to be thinking about what it is doing to greens and fairways.....that's going to be the big problem.....let's just hope the next president plays golf......maybe he will not allow El nino.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2007, 02:17:36 PM »
Sean,

So you think I am full of it, do you?  Well, same to you, buddy!

And no, I am not being testy after last night's pathetic performance by Ohio State.  Those slow, beefy white boys on our offensive line must have had a very nice 50+day holiday (only to be underperformed by the worst pass defense I've seen against a team led by a marginal quarterback and without a real good running game).  Nah, I am not down and pouty at all.   ;)

Mark,

I just love it when you guys talk dirty: "Is it a coincidence that the only country in the world with a larger carbon footprint per head of population than the US is the only other western nation not to ratify Kyoto?"

Plausible answer: Because Kyoto is just a pile of "Double Dutch".  Get the Chinese and Indians to sign off first then let's look at it carefully.  Of course, they are much too smart to do so, and in the case of China at least, not prone to base policies on popular opinion.

BTW, in the absence of conclusive data, what would you have us do?  If man's contribution to "the problem" is very small as numerous scientists have concluded, do you think that our contribution to the solution can be substantial?  If it is increased solar activity that's making things hotter along with water, volcanoes, plant and animal life which largely account for the production of CO2 and the possible effects on global warming, why do we keep making man, particularly if he is American, the heavy in this whole thing?

On the margin, things have to make sense or we're just pissing into the wind.  We don't need to shut Detroit down (they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it themselves without our help) with new crammed down CAFE standards.  Nor do we need to take petroleum based products out of our lives.

Modifying your wonderful "carbon footprint per head" to per capita oil consumption and relating it to productivity might actually serve a useful purpose for discussion.  Through advances in technology, we continue to squeeze more output from each barrel of oil.  I don't have the figures of per capita oil consumption in the U.S. over time, but I understand that the improvements are considerable and this is the area where I would support government policy to encourage and help accelarate.

Doug,

I am not surprised at all.  I have a very good understanding of the socialist mind.

But, again, what's wrong with blaming Clinton for everything?  And, who's doing it?  Nearly everyone I know who truly dislike Clinton personally and hate what he did to the office give him high marks for being smart and a great communicator.  Some of them even have a grudging admiration for his ability to accept the economic realities forced on him by the Republican congress against his every instinct and coopting the credit for their success.

In contrast, even before the 2000 election was made official, Bush was a lazy, dumb-ass draft-dodger, totally devoid of "gravitas", a daddy's boy, and already "The Worst President Ever".  Not even the courtesy and credit that Clinton got for the economy is given to Bush who took over a country already in a recession, with the stock market bubble deflating rapidly, and the worst major attack on U.S. soil (in the planning for several years) taking place nine months after he took office.

I am sorry, but equating the "extremes" of both parties is not accurate.  On the Left, they have been mainstreamed; on the Right, they are a fringe group (look at the fate of Reps. Foley- disgraced and out of office, Jefferson- sworn-in and the recipient of standing ovations by his congressional colleagues).  And by the way, I have absolutely no problem with the 2006 elections.

As to your dinner friend's opinion on Iraq, I tend to agree to some degree with what you describe as his position.  My biggest objection to going into Iraq was that I didn't think it was possible for a Republican president, even one of Ronald Reagan's stature, to get the media and the opposing party behind or at least neutral toward such a war.  Bush is no Reagan, and just what I feared has taken place.

We didn't lose 20,000 troops in the first weeks as many on the press and the Left said we would, but the goal posts keep getting moved and Bush can't overcome a deck which was stacked against him from day 1.  The primary lessons of Viet Nam were that you can't win a war when politics trump military strategy and when the American people are not substantially behind it.  I think we are re-learning those lessons today, and  Bush did not have the foresight and/or advice that might have led to other means of containing terrorism without a direct attack on Iraq to force regime change.

This will be my last largely political in nature post of the year.

Mike Young,

Weather issues as they relate to golf are very local.  I was under the impression that fall preparation, scheduled maintenance including aeration of greens, fairways, and tees, and most importantly, not allowing the soil to get too dry during the winter are important in getting through difficult weather events.  Covering dormant bermuda greens when the temperatures reach into the 30s seems to be a good practice.

Question:

Are bermuda greens that have not been overseeded more susceptible to cold snaps following an unusually warm spell?  I know that overseeded greens have a hard time transitioning in the spring when the weather remains cool and wet.  I've seen them in Texas in June when the rye and bents burn-up and the bermuda is still struggling and it is not a good situation.  
           


     

 



 

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2007, 10:58:38 PM »
Why do the USA not just sign up to Kotyo?

Matthew,

Currently neither the US nor Australia have ratified the treaty.  Also, while China and India have signed the treaty they are exempt from the carbon emission goals and I know this is an issue for both the US and Australia.

Even Al Gore in 1998 opposed ratification as long as developing nations, China and India were exempt from carbon emission reduction goals!  BTW, while the US is the biggest carbon polluter in the world today, by 2030 China will far and away be the biggest polluter in the world.

There is plenty of detailed reading available on the Kyoto Protocol  that a google search should help you find in no time.
Chris,

Is it a coincidence that the only country in the world with a larger carbon footprint per head of population than the US is the only other western nation not to ratify Kyoto?

Probably not. ;)

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2007, 11:57:51 PM »

Mike,

If you are having trouble sleeping, here's a good link regarding bermudagrass and what impact the current Atlanta weather may be having on the local courses.  Synopsis--I think we are OK.

http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/turf/publications/bermuda.html


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2007, 02:10:23 AM »
Nasa has a new theory on what's changing the climate.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/arctic_soot.html
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2007, 02:35:49 AM »
Adam, that's interesting, I hadn't seen that yet.  Anyone older than early to mid 30s who grew up in a climate that saw snow in winter remembers the crappy polluting cars we used to have that made the snow on the sides of even fairly light travelled streets black within a few days, and how that snow would melt more quickly than the rest even though there was more of it (since the snowplows piled it up there)  Now cars just don't pollute nearly as much so only very major roads do you see that happening, and the lightly travelled roads keep the snow on either side until the snow everywhere else has melted.

Of course, the naysayers will just say that volcanos spit out a lot of stuff as well.  The question is about the composition of the material.  When you have it in the air it blocks out the sun to some extent, on the snow it causes less reflection of the sun off the surface of the snow.  Its quite possible that volcanoic ash has different reflectivity in the air and on the snow than man made pollutants do.  That's what needs to be investigated to see if this particular theory has any validity.

If it turned out this was a major contributor to the melting of the icecaps it would be easier to fix on a worldwide basis than CO2 -- we've already got greatly reduced our particulate emissions in the US and Europe, its not terribly expensive and has clear health benefits due to air quality.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2007, 02:58:10 AM »
Doug, When I first heard of this, the Nasa rep intimated that the black ice was building up on areas that were associated with Asia.

Some of the time lapse images of glaciers receeding on Kilamanjaro and Everest (I think) are the most alarming.



« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 03:29:08 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2007, 12:24:23 PM »
Lou,

While I'm not nearly as far right as you, and sometimes can't believe the spin you put on things, I'm personally happy that we live in a country where we can openly criticize our leader, whether from the left or the right.

I'm always amazed at how readily people are willing to give up their freedom of thought and action, particularly when either "security" or some perceived level of economic benefit is promised.  (see below)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070110/wl_csm/oclamp

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2007, 02:15:19 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I am not far right at all.  I am a true liberal in the classical sense.  This means I am rabidly anti-socialist and against most things which subordinate individual rights.  My "spin" may seem whacky to you because of the company you keep.   As a GCAer recently counseled me, we all have a greater need to develop and exercise skepticism in evaluating information.

For example of the insular thinking I am talking about, a GCAer you know well recites in another thread the whole litany against Bush which has been going around since the beggining of the administration.  He crowns it all with the subject of religion and how Bush seeks to impose his beliefs on those who don't share them.

As things would have it, analysis of presidential speeches show that Clinton far surpassed Bush's interjection of religion into the public discourse.   Perversely, in my way of thinking at least, Bush is characterized as a religious zealot while the Bible-toting, philandering ex-president is considered by the Left as "Probably the Greatest President Ever".

And who can ever forget Algore going into the African-American churches and delivering those wonderful sermons in full cadence, style, and accent that put the best black Sourthern Baptist preachers to shame? And you can't believe my spin!  Please!

BTW, Chavez is a great example of the socialist mind and what happens when some of these people are able to attain police power.  You probably saw his presentation to the UN recently.  I am sure that many on the Left in this country sympathized and probably cheered him on, maybe even envied him a bit, privately.

It is interesting that Chavez and many of these folks can't carry on a debate on the strength of their positions and without calling the other side idiots and devils (according to the media and many Democrats, who was the last Republican president with an IQ above 90?  Do you remember Reagan as the "amiable dunce", or references to Ford as having been hit too many times in the head during his football career at Michigan while not wearing a helmet?).

It is so much easier when one has the police power.  Just line up the opposition against the wall and kill them.  Castro did it before him following the great socialists examples of Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler and Stalin.  Just remember, the means are totally justified by the nobility of the ends.

Incidentally, which countries historically have the worst air and water?  I am told that China, the old Soviet Union, and India have deplorable conditions.   I've seen in my own travels a high correlation between socialist governance and poverty and pollution.  It may be a leap, but if you believe that man's contributition to global warming is significant and we can arrest "the problem" by minimizing the use of hydro-carbons, our best hopes are in free enterprise and markets instead of governments.

Okay, this will be my last post of this nature.  Here's hoping for weather which maximizies course conditions while minimizing the use of irrigation, oil products, and other maintenance costs.                  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 02:19:10 PM by Lou_Duran »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2007, 03:04:20 PM »
Lou, my goodness!  Your last post was full of so much sophistry, BS, detraction of people's motives and tarring anyone left of your world's view, that it almost borders on calumny.  (but thankfully you did not cross the line and actually name a specific "socialist" personally who shares the character of those villians)  To place anyone who doesn't share your world and economic view, and is left of you, in the same league as Pol Pot, Chavez, Hitler, etc., because their world view doesn't line up with yours, doesn't mean they must line up with those tyrants mentioned.  Did you notice who is actually seizing all the police power and shredding our constitutional rights of privacy lately?  >:(  Wake up!

Did you know that some of our greatest patriots and heros were of left or liberal leaning persuasions?   ::)

But, the good news is that you are now living in California and there seems to be a fresh wind blowing out there.  Perhaps you can find a new wind to ride.  Man, I was totally impressed with your Republican Governor's State of the State speech.  I hope the partisan pols take up his challenge.  I'd vote for him tomorrow over that fool that occupies the White House now!  He must have a much more eclectic and diverse brain trust to advise him.  Too bad he is foreign born...  :-\  

BTW, not that I care, because I enjoy the chance to see an interesting perspective like yours, but you did say a few days ago that it would be your last politically motivated post...  ;) ;D  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2007, 04:48:25 PM »
Dick,

Thank you.  Coming from you, it means a lot.

I can see how you would like Arnold's speech.  More transfer of wealth, a larger, more bloated public sector bureaucracy, and a "social contract" that places few responsibilities on most while reducing liberty for all.  Maybe Wisconsin will benefit as employers continue to leave the state.  BTW, the proposal is not being well received in Orange County by what I see in the local paper, and the likehood of becoming law is not given real high chances.

You pose the question: "Did you know that some of our greatest patriots and heroes were of left or liberal leaning persuasions?"  No, I did not.  Of course, I doubt that we agree on what a patriot is not to say anything about who would be included in that list.  

As to my posting here, you are right.  I don't even know why I bother.  How can I expect to get through to someone who can't even bring himself to acknowledge at least a few of the attributes of a fine Fazio course?  Maybe it is time to do as TMac and ride into the sunset.  If I only had the discipline.  So, my comment was more of a wish than a commitment.  Replies such as yours, full of flowery words and no substance, motivate me to follow through more dillingently.  For that I thank you again.



 

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2007, 10:46:08 PM »
Why don't you ask the residents of Denver what they think about global warming and how it's affected them this winter.

I believe I mentioned this, back in post #26. I had to note this, as apparently Mr. Mucci and I agree on something, and I felt this should be noted.

That said, I think about the various kinds of winter conditions, and how they affect golf courses, like the two nearest my house, Pradera and CGC. Is it better for the course to be blanketed by deep snow, and thus receive a good dose of moisture and be protected from the kind of cold that is about to hit us (we're expected to be at about 18 degrees on Friday) ? Or does a course benefit more from the kind of winter conditions found in much of the country this winter, where it is warmer than usual? What are the differing pressures applied by each condition to the golf superintendent? Is it a lot more expensive for there to be little snow, or are the costs offset by the fact that people can actually play the course?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2007, 06:09:48 AM »
I have not read everything above, but I can tell you this:
  We had very warm temps up until the middle of December until we had 2 mornings of 27 degrees, which made everything go dormant. Since then everything has greens back up and continues to grown. Were mowing rough every 3 weeks, fairways twice a week. IF we get another couple HARD frosts, where the course looks like a skating rink, it will only delay our spring greens up a week or 2. We will not see any winter kill. We usually dormant by Xmas and all green by the first of March. We're not worried here. It's actually been nice cause we've gotten some extra fertilizing in on our weak fairway areas!

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2007, 06:08:28 PM »

Why don't you ask the residents of Denver what they think about global warming and how it's affected them this winter.

As I understand it (not very well, admittedly), global warming is also supposed to cause general weather instability, meaning that it will cause certain regions to sometimes experience unseasonably cold periods.  Denver's weather this year would be consistent with that.  

I'm not sure about its impact on golf courses, but I can tell you that two blizzards and more snow on the way has had a very negative impact on winter golf in Denver--it's not happening.  We've had so much snow even several consecutive 50+ degree days didn't put much of a dent in the snow and ice.  Maybe in February . . .

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2007, 07:47:17 PM »

Why don't you ask the residents of Denver what they think about global warming and how it's affected them this winter.

As I understand it (not very well, admittedly), global warming is also supposed to cause general weather instability, meaning that it will cause certain regions to sometimes experience unseasonably cold periods.  Denver's weather this year would be consistent with that.  

I'm not sure about its impact on golf courses, but I can tell you that two blizzards and more snow on the way has had a very negative impact on winter golf in Denver--it's not happening.  We've had so much snow even several consecutive 50+ degree days didn't put much of a dent in the snow and ice.  Maybe in February . . .

Tim,

Maybe in February...? I'd be very surprised.

Having grown up in the northeast and lived in Chicago during the Jane Byrne blizzard/deep freeze,  I thought I'd escaped the 4-6 months of perma-snow phenomenon by moving to Denver. Guess not.  :'( Next stop Phoenix, Palm Springs or Mexico, which hopefully will be OK till the next Ice Age descends.

PS I'm no expert but I think a nice blanket of snow might be better for the courses around here than no snow and freeze/thaw cycles. Good for courses, rotten for golfers.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:50:53 PM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

peter_p

Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2007, 08:24:27 PM »
Bandon was closed today because of snow. That is a first.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2007, 11:25:57 PM »
I get real tired of the government taking from some to give to others as we further our thankless entitlement state.
When the US installed the income tax we got the mess we deserved.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2007, 12:06:52 PM »
I get real tired of the government taking from some to give to others as we further our thankless entitlement state.
When the US installed the income tax we got the mess we deserved.

Huh?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2007, 12:21:02 PM »
Do you remember Reagan as the "amiable dunce",...                  

Lou,
That was Clark Clifford's take on Reagan, which I thought a bit harsh.  I much preferred Julian Bond's assessment of The Gipper as "a genial incompetent".
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Dan Kelly

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Re:How bad can this weather be for golf courses???
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2007, 02:41:43 PM »
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 02:42:02 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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