News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good member golf clubs
« on: January 07, 2007, 08:28:09 AM »
We all know golf courses that are so called 'run of the mill' standard layout courses that we, for some reason or other really enjoy playing. What features on these courses make them so interesting?

For me such a course is Kilspindie in East Lothian. It has a good setting on the seashore, has a good variety of holes that play differently each time you play them. It is one of those courses that I always feel I should shoot low at but somehow even if I play it well I never produce a really low round. At the same time a high handicapper seems to have little trouble in playing around his/her handicap.

In short, it presents the golfer with an enticing risk and reward shot on almost every hole without the punishment appearing too extreme until you fail.

What courses fit into this catergory for you and why?

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2007, 08:38:48 AM »
The Plantation and The Palms in Palm Springs - that was visited during KPV last year fits into this category. Low-key clubs with interesting courses (both designed by Brian Curley) that are all about golf. No great vistas, no spectacular features - but a solid bunch of good holes with varied emphasis on strategical approaches and tee shots.  
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 08:43:15 AM by Eric Franzen »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2007, 09:51:26 AM »
Chechesse Creek Club pops into my head, Jon.

The setting's beautiful. The course is very walk-able; in other words, as a member, most wouldn't hesitate to head out for a second eighteen, on foot. And, there's plenty of interesting and diverse holes, with room for higher handicap golfers to get around.

At the same time, from the back tees, with those slope-y greens rolling fast, Chechessee Creek can be very challenging too.
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2007, 01:27:05 PM »
Nicklaus got in a lot of trouble in Australia back in 1988 for calling Royal Melbourne a "good members' course".  Of course, it is, but they also like to think of it as a good championship course.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 01:52:17 PM »
Sounds like Jack got into a bit of hot water. I was thinking more along the lines of a run of the mill course. It seems we discuss lots about championship courses and what makes them interesting but very little about Joe Bloggs GC which is what the majority of clubs are.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 03:28:23 PM »
Jon, I know what you mean.  I belong to a little resort in the Virginia mountains.  It is arun of the mille Ed Ault course, about 6400 yards.  It is in a pretty setting, has some decent holes but requires some thought and is just fun.  It will never be confused with the Homestead or Greenbrier, it just is what it is, totally unpretentious.  I get tired of it periodically but am always happy to play it when I am there.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Cassandra Burns

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 03:28:43 PM »
I grew up playing golf at Lake Cora Hills in Paw Paw, Michigan.  I think it used to be farmland.  On one side of the gravel road you'd have the rather hilly but short front nine, par 35.  The layout was such you'd return to the clubhouse every three holes.  The hilliness and smallish greens provided the "defense" of this nine.  

I really liked the 4th, a tempting par 4 over a deep valley (though thankfully they kept it as short nubby rough, we still called it Death Valley), with slices going into a grove of well-spaced trees and hooks or too-long drives dropping over small cliff to the left and into some really nasty tall grass and pines.  

The 6th was the toughest, a long 4 with a blind tee shot and the approaching second shot going over said Death Valley.  The hooker would find shrubbery to the left, but the slicer would face a horrible uphill lie from Death Valley.  This green was also the fastest due to it's very sharp back to front slope, so much so that I'd rather face a 20 foot downill putt rather than a 4 foot pin-high side hill putt with incalculable break.

The back nine was wonderful.  You'd open the 10th with a par 5, an elevated tee looking down to a generous fairway running along the left side of a large retaining pond.  This body of water ran all the way down the length of the hole, with the gargantuan green tucked around the dogleg right at the end, making only the most heroic 2nd shot possible to reach the green.  A large bunker thirty yards short and left of the green gobbled up the careless long straight shot that failed to navigate the narrow isthmus between the water and a large hill at the outer turn of the dogleg.  Still, it was an easy par for the average conservative player who didn't leave themselves too long a putt on the undulating green.

I liked the quirky double-dogleg par 4 11th.  The hole started with a drive over a 160 yard fairway valley to a dry patchy plateau, with a road out of bounds to the right - luckily, trees lining the road often kept the wayward slice in play.  The hole then doglegged left into a valley, then right and up another hill into the long diagonal green complex protected by moguls and a couple of tame bunkers.  

This hole had so much strategy to it.  The long hitter could drive a draw down into the next valley, but they'd face a blind shot coming up the hill and around two large trees at the top.  At least this provided the best entrance into the green.  The straight drive would trickle over the plateau and into an apple orchard if hit too far, and while from the plateau you could cut off the valleyed dogleg and save some yards, you'd still have a blind shot due to the large blue aluminum equipment shed blocking the view of the green.  While shorter, this approach was yielded more unpredictable results due to the moguls in front of the diagonal green.

A long straight par 3 12th provided a bit of a breather.

The 13th hole was possibly the most strategic 3 shotter I've ever played.  Coming down the right side of the retaining pond featured on the 10th, a generous landing area would support most drives.  The fairway then angled to the right, following the water left and encroaching trees right.  Again the green was tucked behind the pond, only this time more so.  As such, the average player would have no hope of carrying the pond on their second shot.  Instead we were faced with the most strategic shot of the day - navigating a narrowing isthmus between the water and woods, and doglegging sharply back to the left for the last 20 yards to the green.  The reward was a shorter carry over the intimidating water, or even going around the water altogether.  I usually flubbed this second shot, then I'd get scared by the water and just dub my way around the pond for a likely 7.  It was still just so much fun!

Three medium fours come up next, dogleg right, straight, then dogleg left.  Except for some moguls and small trees between the fairways, we had plenty of room for our errant shots.  

Another boring shortish 3, and then the finishing par 5, a long hole which required your drive to split a narrow gap through the trees to a wider (but still challenging) landing area, another shot up a long hill, and a blind third shot for the great majority of us not within 50 yards of the large green complex.  The drive was the thing here, and while you could play a draw or a fade through the gap, it was a narrow gap only ten or fifteen yards wide, about a hundred yards out from the well elevated teeing ground.  That gap was evident from the 17th tee, and its mind games caused many a bogey or worse on the easy 3 preceding it.

I played there a few years ago after an absence of over ten years.  They switched the routing of the back nine, making 10 through 12 into 16 through 18, which I thought diminished the psychological effect of that final magnificent par 5. Yet they couldn't erase my memories of growing up there, and I sank 6 putts from forty to sixty-five feet that day, giving me my then best-ever round of 83.

It's a short course - 5500 to 6200 yards - yet we found it consistenty entertaining for three generations of average golfers.  A first time player to the course would usually gripe about all the blind shots provided by the hills, but I thought it made for some riveting repeat play.  I'd even go so far as to say that the blind shots were fair, because the fairways always indicated the route to play (except on the maddening 11th!)

I always wondered why I liked this short quirky course.  Now that I've come to understand the basics of classic golf course architecture, I understand why:  Wide fairways and short or non-existent rough, manageable but riveting carries, a variety of strategic holes, and important course knowledge gained only through repeat play.

Who would've thunk!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 09:43:03 PM »
Cassandra, throw in a some illuminating photos and you've just written a very good "My Home Course!"

Cassandra Burns

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 09:27:22 AM »
Thank you, Bill!   :-*

I wish I had some pictures to show, but they're all in my head.  Now that my family there has passed on, I doubt I'll be there anytime soon.  :(


Brent Hutto

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 10:16:09 AM »
For my money, some of the older classic Country Club courses that haven't been overly mucked-about with make perfect for members. Two that come to mind are Athens (GA) Country Club and Holston Hills in East Knoxville, TN. I could play either of those courses a hundred rounds a year and enjoy every hole of it.

Even better is Palmetto in Aiken, SC which is as far as you can get from a US Open style course yet offers the club golfer variety, challenge, peace and quiet and ease of walking.

But in my limited experience the ultimate member's courses must be the Monterey Peninsula Country Club's 36 holes. Courses as good as you will ever play, perfect firm and fast conditioning (at least on the sand-capped Shore course which is the one I've been fortunate enough to play) and a setting to die for on that magnificent stretch of Monterey coastline.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 03:14:07 PM »
The Plantation and The Palms in Palm Springs - that was visited during KPV last year fits into this category. Low-key clubs with interesting courses (both designed by Brian Curley) that are all about golf. No great vistas, no spectacular features - but a solid bunch of good holes with varied emphasis on strategical approaches and tee shots.  

Ditto.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 05:36:59 PM »
Thank you, Bill!   :-*

I wish I had some pictures to show, but they're all in my head.  Now that my family there has passed on, I doubt I'll be there anytime soon.  :(



Just a thought, but maybe the current pro could send you a couple of appropriate photos.  That is a very nice write up.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 07:40:22 PM »
Does the club make the members, or the members the club?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Glenn Spencer

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2007, 11:10:19 PM »
Huntington Country Club, great golf course and the routing brings the player back to the clubhouse twice on the front, plus the turn and the halfway house is on 13 tee. The setup is perfect.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 08:57:02 AM »
Does the club make the members, or the members the club?

John,

I probably didn't phrase my question quite right. I am not so interested in the membership but rather the golf course. Most standard members clubs have smaller layouts often on less attractive land than the bigger and better known championship courses. Still many have courses that are equally enjoyable for the average golfer. What I would like to know is at such courses what is it about the course that makes it so interesting and enjoyable?

dsilk

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2007, 11:04:21 AM »
Noticed Rock Ridge....
isnt that the home course of mongo and the sheriff from Blazing Saddles????

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2007, 11:27:04 AM »
The first thing that makes a good members club which can also be a good championship course is one that is well conditioned.  I don't mean one that is green and lush rather one that is conditioned in the manner that was envisioned by the architect.  I think of firm and fast conditions for most of the classical courses as those were the most common conditions when the courses were designed.

Another critical factor to me is how walkable the course is.  It has become more and more uncommon to find a course that one wants to walk and carry.  Perhaps the ideal course new course in that regard is Ballyneal because you can go from one hole to another without following a particular order.  Sure, you can go and play either nine or both, but you can also go out and play 4 or 6 holes or whatever you have time for or whatever you're in the mood for.  

Cassandra Burns

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2007, 11:45:39 AM »
I agree with Jerry, consistent conditioning and walkability really help, as well as the ability to do only so many holes.  I think a good "members course" is also, in general, short.  Most average golfers drive 150 to 200 yards, even with all the changes in equipment technology.  I think most average golfers want to feel they can reach most greens in regulation.  A course that runs 5400 to 6300 yards really works well in this regard.  

If anything, I think a course that plays over 7000 yards from the tips doesn't make a good "members course" - unless most of the members are really good golfers.  When the tips are so stretched out, play slows down, especially since many average golfers will play only from the back because of ego reasons.  Higher scores and more waiting does not make a good course for regular daily play.

Lastly, and maybe this is just in my experience, but it seems to me that the longer the course, the more I run into rude and brusque golfers.  They are more likely to hit into the group in front of them, less likely to fix their ball marks and divots, and in general seem not to care about etiquette.  Maybe they're just more angry at the slower play and higher scores, go figure!  So I think part of what makes a good course is the quality of people it entices to play.




Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2007, 12:14:07 PM »
Cassandra, Jerry,

thanks for the replies. I have also thought for most golfers that a happy length is around the 6000 yard mark. Do you think that it matters so much about the par? I have the feeling that although a 6300 yard par 70 is as hard on paper as a 6600 yard par 72 most average golfers feel more comfortable with less length and less par.

Also, good point about walking. I have only ever walked as I find carts ruin the rhythm of the round. I hadn't thought about the ability to play multipul numbers of holes but am sure it is also one of the important factors.

Cassandra Burns

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2007, 04:01:55 PM »
I forgot one last caveat for the good member course.  It must be inexpensive.  :)

John Kavanaugh

Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2007, 04:10:43 PM »
I forgot one last caveat for the good member course.  It must be inexpensive.  :)

What would you say defines inexpensive in the St. Louis region.  Sounds to me like you would love Norwood Hills where besides the championship West course they have a 6000yd East course that has barely been touched over the years.  

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2007, 04:26:54 PM »

I have a different definition of a "good member club", which is the term I have often used to describe my home course, Point Grey G&CC. Pt. Grey is almost 6900 from the back tees, is relatively flat and would be described as "parkland" in England. Originally laid out in 1922. It hosted the 2003 Canadian Womes Open and the 1954 men's Canadian Open. It is now too short for the tour players, but a well conditioned, interesting course with a friendly membership.

I think of a "good members club" as just that. A good, albeit no longer a championship course where you feel comfortable picking up a game, a course with variety where you enjoy playing regularly.

I would not think of a "good members course" as run of the mill by any means. I would doubt that GCAers, financial considerations aside, would not want membership in a run of the mill club.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 10:10:05 AM »
After watching last week, I would put Wailae at the top of this list. I don't see how you could get tired of playing there.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 06:24:52 PM »
OK, another "homer post":

The private club I own/operate/play in Atlanta (Alpharetta):
Fully private, membership cap (no lottery system for tee times unlike some very high end private clubs!!), Initiation Fee of 7500, total monthly fees for a full family membership (dues, range, service charge) of $291 a month.  Non equity membership but in 34 years, there has never been an assessment and the ownership is a "stable, committed golf guy".

Course has been completey re-done in 2006--irrigation, greens, bunkers, tees, but even before that the club hosted about 20 USGA qualifiers (Sr. Open and local US Open) as well as 5 or 6 Atlanta Am. Championships.  Course is built before they put holes right next to houses and 34 years of growth has thankfully hidden most of the surrounding homes.  4 rated sets of tees for ladies--5100, 5400, 5750 and 6075 and five sets for the men--5750, 6075, 6425, 6700 and 7005.

Membership has lots of good players but more importantly is a good group that are laid back, unpretentious and are there to play golf and have fun.  Very little Member and three guest groups--not much coorporate entertaining stuff--mostly four members out to play and come in for a good burger and cold beer.

Employees have been there forever--bartender, John O'Brien has been there 14 years, old golf pro retired 2 1/2 years ago but was there from 1973 to 2004.  Chef started as a waiter 18 years ago.   It's really hard to get fired! :)

Membership understands that the focus is golf and the course.  Of course they would love a new clubhouse and I am sure some would like a fancy swim/tennis, but all understand what my focus is--affordable family golf on a good course that is consistentnlky in good shape.  While we do brunch, family nights, dances etc., I tell any prospect that if they are looking for the fancy, impress your neighbor type of clubhouse they are at the wrong spot.  But I also tell them for the best golf with a good bunch of guys (and gals) at a great price, look no farther!

PS  Given the renovation and location/price, we are blessed to have had a waiting list since shortly BEFORE we closed the course for 10 months!!

That's a good "members course" and that business model will work as long as enough consumers appreciate good golf over 75,000 square foot clubhouses and fountains in the lakes!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Good member golf clubs
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 07:15:15 PM »
 8)

1) You feel at home,, feel a little pride driving in
2) folks know your name.. not everyone but enough
3) the bartender, managers , and the pros know you
4) the pros offer tips on the driving range
5) good post-round lunch fare
6) good enough kitchen for one dinner a week (free on your birthday)
7) the sprinklers don't run when its raining
8) options

At WCC we have:

one course where the pros used to play.. take your shotmaking game to the tips there when you're feeling good about your game

one course that's pretty wide open,  execution required on old front 9, risk-reward in play on old back 9,  working-positioning the ball required on new 9

one course where knowledge of self, shotmaking is king, rewards await those not seduced by their egos..

and access to two additional courses that used to host the pros, what you see is pretty much what you get.. but those glory days are past.. one must execute to score well.

with 4 tees at 5.5 courses... I think variety is great.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 07:17:58 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"