Valhalla/'08 Ryder Cup progress

[Peter_Herreid]

Happened to see a few of the previous Ryder Cup highlight programs recently and it occured to me that there will be/is on-going renovation to Valhalla in preparation for the next Ryder Cup.

Any of the treehouse have updates or new info on whether the renovations are on-going now, course closed for the year, etc.??

Will this be similar to 1991 when, IIRC, the Ocean course was being tweaked right up to the start?

From an architectural bent, is it possible that any of the changes will be more reminiscent of Nicklaus' recent work, as opposed to the era during which Valhalla was originally designed?

Thanks!

[Nick Pozaric]

All of the greens and tees  have been seeded and put to bed for the winter time.  Most of the work including cleanup has been completed and just now working on a couple smaller projects off course for logistics.  Id say Nicklaus was going for a bit of old and new in the changes.  He wanted to make the changes blend in but keep with some updated style, not as rolly polly moundy as before.  The greens that were not started over from scratch were slightly recontoured to allow for more usable pin locations.  The members that have been out to see it love it and cant wait to get back out.  Yardage has changed and will play around 7,550 and some of the new yardage was achieved from moving green sites back.  One huge visual change will be the #7 par 5 that has the split fairway will now have water running from tee to green where rocks and fairway used to be.

[peter_mcknight]

Based on published information, the following is the card of the course at present:

450/500/210/380/485/500/600/190/420--3735 yards par 35
575/200/470/350/220/440/510/425/545--3735 yards par 36
7470 yards par 71

Yardage adds:
Hole 4--30
Hole 5--20
Hole 6--80
Hole 8--25
Hole 10--15
Hole 11--35
Hole 14--10
Hole 15--15-25
Hole 16--75-85


Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Further, the most extensive redesign was at the 6th, where the tee was pushed back and a new green site moved some 60-80 yards back.

I don't think they have settled on the yardages for the 7th and 10th.  The 7th may go back another 25 yards and the 10th may go as long as 585-600.  At that point, there would be the approximate 7550 yards.

Nicklaus also commented about reworking the mounding around the course for improved spectator viewing, etc.  Essentially, this is a tournament course, both inside and outside the ropes, nothing more or less.

Oh, lastly, Nicklaus said he loves the 18th and said it doesn't need any changes!

[Jon Spaulding]

I played there last June; #16 was complete and is consistent with the rest of the course. One of the most ridiculous par 4s I've ever played.

They were starting in on #6 green and I expect it will be a lightning rod for negativity. Will post some photos in the next few days.

[Matt_Cohn]

Jon,

What do you mean by "ridiculous" in reference to #16? Difficulty? Or design?

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon,

What do you mean by "ridiculous" in reference to #16? Difficulty? Or design?

Both; 510 into a light breeze, with a soggy fairway(low point), OB left, creek right, mounds adjacent to a green with buried baby elephants. What more could one ask for?

[Matt_Cohn]

Only to have a visually deceptive green with no clues as to the hole location.

 

[Jon Spaulding]

I forgot that part; I found the recovery options on 16 near the green to be unreasonable given the length, the green and the hazards one has to navigate to get there. Still a great course otherwise.

My caddie mentioned that JB Holmes hit a sand wedge into #18.....do I hear captain's pick?

[Nick Pozaric]

Just to correct a few things from above
No new t on #6
No new t on #7
10 was lengthened by more that and will play close to 595-600
No added length on 14,15,16
About 50 extra yards on 17

If you played last June #16 was untouched and no work had been done on it.  Can you comment on the "lightning rod for negativity"  There is also no OB on 16 and never was any.

16 will be night and day difference than before. As so is several other areas on the course will be.  Totally unrecognizeable.

JB hit 54* wedge on 18  He loves the course!

[Nick Church]

Nick... any chances, i can beg you for a photo or two?  doesn't matter to me on quality or color of the grass.  I'm just curious, and doubt i will see it at this year's Derby (darn it).

Nick C.

[Jon Spaulding]

Just to correct a few things from above
No new t on #6
No new t on #7
10 was lengthened by more that and will play close to 595-600
No added length on 14,15,16
About 50 extra yards on 17

If you played last June #16 was untouched and no work had been done on it.  Can you comment on the "lightning rod for negativity"  There is also no OB on 16 and never was any.

16 will be night and day difference than before. As so is several other areas on the course will be.  Totally unrecognizeable.

JB hit 54* wedge on 18  He loves the course!

I was told by our caddie that the back tee we played on 16 was the new one and that they "had just lengthened the hole for the ryder cup". It made sense to me as I've not seen a flat par 4 over 500 yards on a course that's older than maybe 10 years. Probably time for me to stop listening to caddies.

The hillside on the left, if memory serves, is thick undergrowth and would likely be a lost ball/re-tee if you hit it there; not technically OB but perhaps the stroke equivalent. Apologies for the abbreviation.

Lightning rods seem to come out when the great players are hitting more than an 8-iron these days. When compounded by that silly green complex....

Other than 16, a very good course.

[Nick Pozaric]

Just to correct a few things from above
No new t on #6
No new t on #7
10 was lengthened by more that and will play close to 595-600
No added length on 14,15,16
About 50 extra yards on 17

If you played last June #16 was untouched and no work had been done on it.  Can you comment on the "lightning rod for negativity"  There is also no OB on 16 and never was any.

16 will be night and day difference than before. As so is several other areas on the course will be.  Totally unrecognizeable.

JB hit 54* wedge on 18  He loves the course!

I was told by our caddie that the back tee we played on 16 was the new one and that they "had just lengthened the hole for the ryder cup". It made sense to me as I've not seen a flat par 4 over 500 yards on a course that's older than maybe 10 years. Probably time for me to stop listening to caddies.

The hillside on the left, if memory serves, is thick undergrowth and would likely be a lost ball/re-tee if you hit it there; not technically OB but perhaps the stroke equivalent. Apologies for the abbreviation.

Lightning rods seem to come out when the great players are hitting more than an 8-iron these days. When compounded by that silly green complex....

Other than 16, a very good course.

Good call on not listening to the caddies, at least some of them  That tee was added for fun during fall of 03.  Next time you see 16 you wont believe its the same hole.  From 160 in.  The hillside on the left was brought down, trees removed, and the low area left of the green raised about 15-20 feet and the green now blends into the hillside.  The new green is different shape,size, elevation, bunkers, everything is totally redone.

Nick, email me at nickpoz@insightbb.com

[Mark Pearce]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

[Doug Ralston]

On GolfKentuckyLinks; Gumpster commented:

"Got the low down on the course over the Holiday weekend.....Apparently the members are receiving letters saying that the course will only have 14 holes open for play in 2007 until September. From what i gathered holes 6,7,11,16 are still a ways off until grass is on the greens. Don't know whos familiar w/ the course but #7 used to have a split fairway w/ a dried up creek bed down the entire left side.....well now, that creek bed is a lake that extends all the way to the green...that should make hitting that left fairway a little bit tougher now.....#11 was a 180yd par 3 that played slightly uphill....that whole green was dynamited and dropped...so the hole actually plays downhill now  The row of trees that divided 16,17...have been removed.....while playing 17 now, u can overlook all of 13 (the island green),14,some of 15 and all of 16....making the corporate tents that sit up on 17's fairway, the best seat in the house!!   A pot buncker was added to the left of 18's green....All n' all the course is coming around....and im gonna do my damnest to b one of the 1st guests to get out there this spring!!!...I just hope everyone n Kentucky realize's just how big this Ryder cup is gonna be!!!"

It seems preparations are indeed well underway, affecting the membership and rather insistently changing the layout. We in the area just praying for an opportunity to get a ticket!  

Doug

[Nick Pozaric]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

Maybe so players will hit something longer than a 7 iron into it?

[Nick Pozaric]

On GolfKentuckyLinks; Gumpster commented:

"Got the low down on the course over the Holiday weekend.....Apparently the members are receiving letters saying that the course will only have 14 holes open for play in 2007 until September. From what i gathered holes 6,7,11,16 are still a ways off until grass is on the greens. Don't know whos familiar w/ the course but #7 used to have a split fairway w/ a dried up creek bed down the entire left side.....well now, that creek bed is a lake that extends all the way to the green...that should make hitting that left fairway a little bit tougher now.....#11 was a 180yd par 3 that played slightly uphill....that whole green was dynamited and dropped...so the hole actually plays downhill now  The row of trees that divided 16,17...have been removed.....while playing 17 now, u can overlook all of 13 (the island green),14,some of 15 and all of 16....making the corporate tents that sit up on 17's fairway, the best seat in the house!!   A pot buncker was added to the left of 18's green....All n' all the course is coming around....and im gonna do my damnest to b one of the 1st guests to get out there this spring!!!...I just hope everyone n Kentucky realize's just how big this Ryder cup is gonna be!!!"

It seems preparations are indeed well underway, affecting the membership and rather insistently changing the layout. We in the area just praying for an opportunity to get a ticket!  

Doug

The above is close except for it should be #8 and not #7 that was behind. In addition to thw work mentioned on 11 it was also moved about 30 yards back and left. The four holes that are behind are because of numerous changes and waiting for final approval by Nicklaus.  Also im not sure where they got September from but it will be open several months before then.

[Jon Spaulding]

Just to correct a few things from above
No new t on #6
No new t on #7
10 was lengthened by more that and will play close to 595-600
No added length on 14,15,16
About 50 extra yards on 17

If you played last June #16 was untouched and no work had been done on it.  Can you comment on the "lightning rod for negativity"  There is also no OB on 16 and never was any.

16 will be night and day difference than before. As so is several other areas on the course will be.  Totally unrecognizeable.

JB hit 54* wedge on 18  He loves the course!

I was told by our caddie that the back tee we played on 16 was the new one and that they "had just lengthened the hole for the ryder cup". It made sense to me as I've not seen a flat par 4 over 500 yards on a course that's older than maybe 10 years. Probably time for me to stop listening to caddies.

The hillside on the left, if memory serves, is thick undergrowth and would likely be a lost ball/re-tee if you hit it there; not technically OB but perhaps the stroke equivalent. Apologies for the abbreviation.

Lightning rods seem to come out when the great players are hitting more than an 8-iron these days. When compounded by that silly green complex....

Other than 16, a very good course.

Good call on not listening to the caddies, at least some of them  That tee was added for fun during fall of 03.  Next time you see 16 you wont believe its the same hole.  From 160 in.  The hillside on the left was brought down, trees removed, and the low area left of the green raised about 15-20 feet and the green now blends into the hillside.  The new green is different shape,size, elevation, bunkers, everything is totally redone.

Nick, email me at nickpoz@insightbb.com

Thanks for the update. I'll look forward to seeing the "new" version the next time I'm back there. The changes described in Doug's post sound like more than I was told.

[Doug Ralston]

Thanks Nick, I will pass that on back to GKL. We there are, needless to say, holding our collective breaths in anticipation of such an event in our midst.

Doug

[Jon Spaulding]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

The Ryder Cup is match play for 3 days....every 15-20 years or so.

The members and guests get to live with the changes, generally playing stroke play, the rest of the time!

475 is just fine....but over 500 is a big number, on a flat hole with hazards. For those of us around par, a big deal! Other than enjoying the course and playing one's best, I don't know what there is left in golf....

[Nick Pozaric]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

The Ryder Cup is match play for 3 days....every 15-20 years or so.

The members and guests get to live with the changes, generally playing stroke play, the rest of the time!

475 is just fine....but over 500 is a big number, on a flat hole with hazards. For those of us around par, a big deal! Other than enjoying the course and playing one's best, I don't know what there is left in golf....

Not everyone will play the back tees so very few people will ever play it at 510 yards, thats why there are 4 sets of tees.  #16 from the front mens tees measures 345 yards, so no matter what your level of skill there is a proper tee to play.  

[Mark Pearce]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

Maybe so players will hit something longer than a 7 iron into it?

You appear to have completely missed my point and then compounded it later by pointing out that almost no-one else will play from these tees.  What difference does it make to the Ryder Cup players what the par of this hole is, they aren't (or shouldn't) be interested in par, just what the other guy is doing.  This obsession with par and protecting it is an unhealthy thing in modern golf.

By the way, I've thought a bit more about your answer and it makes no sense.  Are you saying that players will hit, say a five iron because it's a par 4 but might hit a different club?  I don't think so.  I'd imagine they'll follow convention and make club choices based on yardages, not par scores.

[Nick Pozaric]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

Maybe so players will hit something longer than a 7 iron into it?

You appear to have completely missed my point and then compounded it later by pointing out that almost no-one else will play from these tees.  What difference does it make to the Ryder Cup players what the par of this hole is, they aren't (or shouldn't) be interested in par, just what the other guy is doing.  This obsession with par and protecting it is an unhealthy thing in modern golf.

By the way, I've thought a bit more about your answer and it makes no sense.  Are you saying that players will hit, say a five iron because it's a par 4 but might hit a different club?  I don't think so.  I'd imagine they'll follow convention and make club choices based on yardages, not par scores.

I agree with you about par.  It doesnt matter if they shoot 60 or 80.  As long as the beat the other players score.   I also agree with you about the obession about protecting par.  Look at the scores of a PGA vs US Open, and ill tell you I have much more fun watching a PGA.  I made the comment about the 7 iron in favor of longer holes.  The longer the hole the more club a player will hit to the green and hit it further from the hole.  Guys are hitting it so far they are making many courses into pitch and put.

[Mark Pearce]

Nick,

Absolutely right about giving them a test.  Driver/Wedge golf isn't a test of the whole of a game and isn't much fun to watch.  As recently as 15 years ago the best player in the world was Faldo, because he was the best mid/long iron player.  Today the best iron player in the world is still world number 1 but his iron game is rarely tested.  That's why his strategy at Hoylake was such a pleasure to watch.

[Jon Spaulding]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

The Ryder Cup is match play for 3 days....every 15-20 years or so.

The members and guests get to live with the changes, generally playing stroke play, the rest of the time!

475 is just fine....but over 500 is a big number, on a flat hole with hazards. For those of us around par, a big deal! Other than enjoying the course and playing one's best, I don't know what there is left in golf....

Not everyone will play the back tees so very few people will ever play it at 510 yards, thats why there are 4 sets of tees.  #16 from the front mens tees measures 345 yards, so no matter what your level of skill there is a proper tee to play.  

Do you know if the Ryder Cup tees will become the "new" black tees, or will they be unavailable for normal play?I generally enjoy seeing "all" a course has to offer, but wondering what the course/slope ratings will be from the new tees, or if they'll leave it unrated. It was already pretty tough in June!

[Nick Pozaric]

Sounds like the 2d will be a par 4 for the Ryder Cup based on Nicklaus' comments and his redesign of the green.

Why is there such an obsession with par 4s longer than 475 yards?  The Ryder Cup, in case anyone, Nicklaus included, has forgotten, is a matchplay event.  Whether the second is a par3 or a par 6 Europe's 4 still beats the US's 5 (or vice versa).  If only architects, owners and players could be less obsessed by scoring against par and concentrate on the quality of the golfing challenge offered.

The Ryder Cup is match play for 3 days....every 15-20 years or so.

The members and guests get to live with the changes, generally playing stroke play, the rest of the time!

475 is just fine....but over 500 is a big number, on a flat hole with hazards. For those of us around par, a big deal! Other than enjoying the course and playing one's best, I don't know what there is left in golf....

Not everyone will play the back tees so very few people will ever play it at 510 yards, thats why there are 4 sets of tees.  #16 from the front mens tees measures 345 yards, so no matter what your level of skill there is a proper tee to play.  

Do you know if the Ryder Cup tees will become the "new" black tees, or will they be unavailable for normal play?I generally enjoy seeing "all" a course has to offer, but wondering what the course/slope ratings will be from the new tees, or if they'll leave it unrated. It was already pretty tough in June!

When we do have the course re-rated all tees will be rated. After speaking with Azinger during his visit we already know that he will not pick all of the back tees for play.  It was interesting to talk to him because he is already thinking about course setup