[Phil Benedict]

I just reread Ran's review of Bethpage Black, responding to another thread comparing the 4th and 5th on the Black.  Ran referred to Bethpage as Tillinghast's finest examination of driving, and not because of narrow corridors but because of bunkering and other architectural factors.  We often hear courses described as great second shot courses (eg Augusta National), but what are the great driving courses?

[Eric Franzen]

The Old Course is the first one that enters my mind. So many different routes that can be explored with the driver in your hand.

[Mark Arata]

Pebble Beach and Plainfield for me.....felt like you had to be long and in the fairway to have a chance at a lot of those greens........I can't do either one, so they were tough rounds for me.....

[Phil_the_Author]

Phil, I am a bit biased, but I have never seen a course where the drive was of such consistently important in how both individual holes and the entire course was played than Bethpage Black.

It is unrelenting and demanding. On almost every hole, if the tee shot is not in the proper position your ability to put your approach on the green is either eliminated or greatly reduced.

That is why PAR is such a great score for any hole or the entire round.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil Y does mention BB and I certainly concur -- but without question the most unique from a driving perspective is where they played last year's US Open -- WF / West. Unlike the Black the greens at WF / West cannot be hit from just anywhere in the fairway -- assuming you find such a location.

The greens are severely contoured and failure to hit specific areas will result in high scores -- this year's US Open demonstrated that and the course was far from being a brickyard in terms of firmness.

If I had to name another course where driving at the highest level is required -- see the likes of Oakmont -- this year's US Open venue. I only hope the USGA doesn't narrow the fairways to the silly manner they did with the '94 and '83 events because the internal contours of the fairway were thrwarted by the overreachof man's hands (e.g. see the likes of the 10th fairway as one clear example).

[Phil McDade]

Portrush (I have not played, but other GCA posters have) is often described as a great driving course, in part because so many of the holes dogleg and are piched at the corners by bunkers.

[Adam Clayman]

Desert Forest deserves mention. When Lefty wants to work on his driving, he goes there.

Mark Arata, I'm not sure about Pebble Beach. Mostly because I have personally witnessed a guy hit every drive perfectly (285 with a slight draw) finding the fairway, everytime. He shot 95.

[Brian Phillips]

This may sound weird but this is a discussion I had with Wayne Morrison (corrected)last but I think Merion is one of the great driving courses because of the angles to hit the ball off the tee.

You can chew off as much as you want on a number of holes but there are also breathers where you can just whack it up the middle.

[Steve Lapper]

AS much as I hate to admit it in public.....both Matt & Wayne are correct, WFW & Merion are among the best courses placing a premium on tee shots. Other's belonging on that list include:

Shinnecock
The Black
Quaker Ridge
Prairie Dunes
Southern Hills
Desert Forest
LACC North
Olympic

[JohnV]

Oakmont puts a premium on driving since trying to get it on those greens from the rough is almost impossible and even tougher from the fairway bunkers or the ditches.

Most great courses put a premium on driving, either in keeping it in the fairway or putting it in the proper place on the fairway.

Can anyone name a great course that doesn't require great driving?

[wsmorrison]

Wyane Morissson must be Norwegian for Wayne Morrison  

Happy New Year, buddy.

[Phil Benedict]

Phil, I am a bit biased, but I have never seen a course where the drive was of such consistently important in how both individual holes and the entire course was played than Bethpage Black.

It is unrelenting and demanding. On almost every hole, if the tee shot is not in the proper position your ability to put your approach on the green is either eliminated or greatly reduced.

That is why PAR is such a great score for any hole or the entire round.

I've never played the Black even though it's only an hour drive.  Seems like an incredibly exiting course. When I read what people say about it I wonder why it isn't ranked higher.  May reflect bias against a public facility or the supposed blandness of the greens.  I thought the Open at Bethpage was one of the best ever, partly due to the truly public feel of the place.

Someday I'll brave the crack of dawn and drive down there.

[Glenn Spencer]

I am in disagreement about The Black. I have played the golf course quite a bit and while I don't think it was an easy course to drive the ball at, I didn't find it to be some sort of 'final exam' on driving the golf ball. Maybe with all the fescue and what not since the first Open, but pre 1998, I didn't find it overly challenging off the tee. 1,2,4,6,7,11,12,13,15,18 didn't seem overly taxing to me. In my opinion, Wolf Run is a more difficult ask off the tee than Bethpage, I would also put The Honors in this category and NCR as well.

[tlavin]

Given what I keep reading about Oakmont, I would venture that driving the ball is of paramount concern there because of the prevalence of fairway bunkers on both sides of the fairway on many of the par 4's and 5's.  I know that the greens at Oakmont are among the toughest, firmest and fastest on the continent, but if you don't put the ball in the fairway, you're really asking for trouble.

[Dan Moore]

Portrush and Royal County Down both place a premium on accurate and strategic driving.  

Long is not always best at Portrush so one needs to think strategic placement at all times.  

The 13th at RCD is one of the best driving holes anywhere.  Long left gives a partial view of the green, 10 yards left of the fw is dead.  Right puts you blind behind a dune for your second shot.  

[Tom Huckaby]

There has been and never will be a greater test of driving one's golf ball than Fort Ord-Bayonet, circa 1982 or prior.  Those who played it then know what I am talking about.  Long course obviated any chance to lay back; two feet off either side of any fairway meant dead.  Memories.....

BUT... I think Dan Moore is on the right track here.  A test of driving doesn't necessarily equal the greatest driving course.

For that, I think you'd want strategy to come into play far more than just "keep it between the death."  You'd also want a few holes that at least tempt you to let out the shaft, if not downright allow it.

And you know what's coming to my mind?

Rustic Canyon.

Dammit I wish I could be there this weekend.

TH

[Phil Benedict]

I am in disagreement about The Black. I have played the golf course quite a bit and while I don't think it was an easy course to drive the ball at, I didn't find it to be some sort of 'final exam' on driving the golf ball. Maybe with all the fescue and what not since the first Open, but pre 1998, I didn't find it overly challenging off the tee. 1,2,4,6,7,11,12,13,15,18 didn't seem overly taxing to me. In my opinion, Wolf Run is a more difficult ask off the tee than Bethpage, I would also put The Honors in this category and NCR as well.

Glenn,

You are challenging the opinion of one of the world's foremost authorities on golf course architecture.  Here is a quote from Ran's Bethpage review:

"As an examination in driving, this course is Tillinghast’s masterpiece. The corridor of fairways is wide, even for Tillinghast - there is plenty of space to play golf. The fairway bunkering, with all respect to San Francisco, is his finest, both for variety and scale. The monstrous Glacier bunker cutting across the 4th fairway, the diagonal bunkers on the 5th and 7th holes, the gigantic bunker on the 12th, the cross bunker 40 yards short of the 13th green that creates an optical illusion, all these bunkers are of a heroic scale befitting the property."

[Phil McDade]

I think this begins and ends with Medinah.  Say what you will about the golf course, but at Medinah, you're not talking about angles of attack or the best way to approach greens.  Unless you're talking about the post-punchout approach!  Missing fairways at Medinah is not just "asking for trouble".  It is trouble, big trouble, often double trouble (literally).  The scoring beta between a round where you hit, say, 4 fairways at Medinah and, say, 10 or 12 is as high as any golf course I've ever played.

Boat of Garten (which I have played) is the Scottish version of this. Not long at @ 6,000 yards, but tight corridors through the silver birch forest. A missed fairway is almost always a punch out, if you can find the ball.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Muifield Village is a grreat driving course with all those downhill tee shot.  I don't mind blind shots, nonetheless, to see a tee shot stay in the air against the sky is hard to beat.

[Glenn Spencer]

I am in disagreement about The Black. I have played the golf course quite a bit and while I don't think it was an easy course to drive the ball at, I didn't find it to be some sort of 'final exam' on driving the golf ball. Maybe with all the fescue and what not since the first Open, but pre 1998, I didn't find it overly challenging off the tee. 1,2,4,6,7,11,12,13,15,18 didn't seem overly taxing to me. In my opinion, Wolf Run is a more difficult ask off the tee than Bethpage, I would also put The Honors in this category and NCR as well.

Glenn,

You are challenging the opinion of one of the world's foremost authorities on golf course architecture.  Here is a quote from Ran's Bethpage review:

"As an examination in driving, this course is Tillinghast’s masterpiece. The corridor of fairways is wide, even for Tillinghast - there is plenty of space to play golf. The fairway bunkering, with all respect to San Francisco, is his finest, both for variety and scale. The monstrous Glacier bunker cutting across the 4th fairway, the diagonal bunkers on the 5th and 7th holes, the gigantic bunker on the 12th, the cross bunker 40 yards short of the 13th green that creates an optical illusion, all these bunkers are of a heroic scale befitting the property."

Phil,

I am not challenging one of the foremost authorities on golf course architecture, I just don't agree with him. If you want to shoot 71 at Bethpage, you have to drive it pretty well, but you can drive it pretty poorly and still shoot 80. Most of the examples in that passage don't have a lot do with driving the ball. Horses for courses, I guess, I didn't find the golf course that impossible off the tee. Is 4 really that difficult off the tee? That fairway is pretty tough to miss and there is not that much trouble. The cross bunker is in play if you hit it in the rough, but you have to catch a bad lie for that to be the case. Geoffrey Walsh told me that a new tee had been added to 5, but before that, I didn't think that tee shot was OVERLY difficult, I thought the second was though. 1 and 2 are not demanding or drivers necessarily. 6? Not a tough tee shot, but the second is difficult to me. 9 is demanding and so is 10. 11 is not too taxing. 12? The bunker is either carryable or it isn't. 13 is not that bad and either is 15. I found 16 to be one of the tougher drives on the course and I doubt that would be the popular opinion. Another reason that I think the course sets up differently for some. Long tough golf courses without a lot of water and OB are my favorites and that is one of the reasons I feel so at home at The Black. Playing NCR a lot is a great way to be prepared when you show up at The Black.

[Tom_Doak]

Did anyone else notice that half of Ran's examples of why the Black is a great driving course are actually examples of second-shot bunkers on par fives?  I have yet to decipher how those prove his theory.

I seldom use the term "great driving course" because it is often used by TV announcers as a meaningless term of respect.  Isn't every course a great test of driving once they've set it up for a U.S. Open?

[Doug Wright]

I've only played it once unfortunately, but I thought Royal Dornoch was a great driving course. Placement requirements and strategic bunkers (many of which I found   ) made it a really solid test off the tee.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I seldom use the term "great driving course" because it is often used by TV announcers as a meaningless term of respect.  Isn't every course a great test of driving once they've set it up for a U.S. Open?

Good point.  on the other hand there are some courses that are demanding off the tee, like a Portrush.  To score well the tee ball is essential and not just because of long rough etc.

[Phil Benedict]

Glenn,

I haven't ever seen the course so I probably shouldn't speak for Ran, but I didn't interpret what he said as a commentary on driving difficulty so much as on the interest level created by the driving options.  

I got to get my ass out of bed and play the course!  There's a New Year's resolution right there.

[Glenn Spencer]

In the late 90's I joined a club called Meadowbrook just north of Dayton, Ohio. It is a Nipper Campbell design (Moraine) and I can't tell you how demanding it was off the tee. Playing there was one of the best things for my golf game. Everytime I played someplace else, I thought I had all the room in the world to hit. It is subtlely one of the toughest driving courses in the country that I have seen, but it has to be at 6500 yards. If anyone has played it, I would love to hear if there are courses that they think are more demanding off the tee. If you ever fly into Dayton International and want to see what demanding off the tee is, give this little course a shot.

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