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Mark Bourgeois

Royal Cinque Ports 15-18: pls discuss
« on: September 29, 2009, 05:11:48 PM »
Answer any as the spirit moves you:
1. Did everyone play each hole using the same strategy or did aproaches vary?
2. Which architectural elements if any played conclusive roles in the matches? Which played significant roles? Which played surprising or unexpected roles?
3. What was the best architectural feature in this stretch? (Please give your definition of "best.")
4. Taken as a whole, how would you describe the nature of the test?
5. Match or medal: same, different, better, worse?
6. Can someone crawl into Gary Player's head and offer your most thoughtful explanation of his choice of that stretch?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal Cinque Ports 15-18: pls discuss
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2009, 05:34:42 PM »
Answer any as the spirit moves you:
1. Did everyone play each hole using the same strategy or did aproaches vary?

As I saw it, approaches varied considerably, mostly so far as layup distance at 16 and strategies for going at the green in two, the club used for the tee shot at 17 and the line of the drive at 18. I think 15 is a green you can't really come up with a strategy for until you have played it more than three or four times.

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2. Which architectural elements if any played conclusive roles in the matches? Which played significant roles? Which played surprising or unexpected roles?

The green site at 16 regularly turns matches, and I saw a few turned and heard stories of others being turned during Buda. 17 green as well, which goes totally against the links "ground game" approach. So many people make a mess of what is a wedge or less for most because of the blindness coupled with just how confounding that green is, especially when it's downwind, and you know you can't land it short, but by the same token you can't see how a ball pitching on the green can possibly stay on.

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3. What was the best architectural feature in this stretch? (Please give your definition of "best.")

The 16th green complex. For a par 5 that measures under 450yds from where the yellow tees are most days, there are far more 6s made than 4s. That shot is a whole lot of daily conditions mixed with imagination, ball striking and luck, perhaps more than any other shot I have faced in golf. Even if you lay up, the correct line and zone moves with the pin and wind.

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4. Taken as a whole, how would you describe the nature of the test?

I'd say it's a stretch that separates "players" from the rest. There are low numbers to be had if you can keep your head and play the conditions of the day, but ample chance to trip up and leak a whole lot of oil.

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5. Match or medal: same, different, better, worse?

I have to vote, if we are talking about competition, for stroke. You stand on 15 tee knowing you can make a good fist of the final four, and perhaps should make a good fist of them, but it takes so very little for it to go horribly wrong. It's just you vs the course.

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6. Can someone crawl into Gary Player's head and offer your most thoughtful explanation of his choice of that stretch?

He may have just pulled a Jim Golby and finished 4, 5, 3, 3... otherwise I don't see that they are the best four consecutive holes in the world. I don't even think they are the best consecutive 4 at Deal (14-17, in my book).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 05:37:36 PM by Scott Warren »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal Cinque Ports 15-18: pls discuss
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2009, 05:42:04 PM »
Answer any as the spirit moves you:
1. Did everyone play each hole using the same strategy or did aproaches vary?
2. Which architectural elements if any played conclusive roles in the matches? Which played significant roles? Which played surprising or unexpected roles?
3. What was the best architectural feature in this stretch? (Please give your definition of "best.")
4. Taken as a whole, how would you describe the nature of the test?
5. Match or medal: same, different, better, worse?
6. Can someone crawl into Gary Player's head and offer your most thoughtful explanation of his choice of that stretch?

The wind played from all directions except ‘prevailing’ and was mostly across the course.  Even at it's strongest it was never above a 2 club effect when played straight into it.
1
15 driver and then 3r to 5i
16 driver and (like 12) always giving it a bit more meant I got a bit less than hoped for.  It remains and ambition to hit this one in two. Tried a variety of approached from W,W to 7i,7i chip and run
17 see below
18 as I have driven the burn previously I varied between D and 2R off the tee and 5i and W for the second

Superficially the semi blind approaches to 15, 16, and 17 look similar but the play differently.  Plenty of variety for me...

2
Finding the cross bunker on 17 left my foursomes partner too much to do as our opponents were on the green in 2 with the match all square.  Unfortunately nailing the drive probably cost us the match.  Now that we’re off the course I’d like to say sorry to him.
Thereafter I tried for Vardon’s hollow with my 3r, but ended up just short or just long.  It would be interesting to measure it – about a medium green sized target?  The fairway is wonderful and makes it almost as good of its type as Aberdovey 16th.

3
I think the approach to 16is magical. I saw one long shot hold the green as it ran up the left side of the approaching valley and was slung onto the green.  I also saw a lovely 5w approach form the right and take a cruel bounce off the knob and shot through.

4
Jim Goby finished one of his matches Par, Par, Birdie, Birdie.  Just shows it can be one but I’d be surprised to see it happen regularly.  My gut feeling is these are all holes that can swing one way of the other and make this a course for...

5
Matchplay
Craig pointed out that the pros would hate the quirk and this stretch has plenty of it.

6
He was just being polite and didn’t really know what to say about the place!
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal Cinque Ports 15-18: pls discuss
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 05:04:23 PM »
Playing 15-18 at Deal is very dependent on which way the wind is blowing.

On Wednesday morning (foursomes) and afternoon (singles), we were right into the prevailing wind and those holes played much longer than on Thursday morning (fourballs) when we were dead downwind.

#15 is much easier downwind as you could play a much shorter second shot.  Into the wind, that's a hit and hope second.  With the big shoulder front left of the green kicking everything back right, even 30 yard pitch and run shots wound up in 3 putt territory.

#16 has the most interesting shot of the four holes, the shot to the green whether it's the second or third.  The big mound right front with our pin tucked behind it kicked all running approaches far left and mostly back.  Aerial approaches from any distance wound up at least 20' behind the hole.  That is a great natural defense.  Into the wind, it was actually easier to get close as you could lay up to maybe 60 yards and hit a wedge shot that could check.  Downwind, no hope.

#17 has a great funneling effect in the back of the green, sort of a punchbowl effect.  This allowed downwind pitches to get back in that area and some short birdie putts resulted.

#18 is just a good finishing test although far from the hardest hole on the course.  Downwind it was fun to gauge how far in front of the green to land the running approach.

It really is a great finish, in either wind.