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TEPaul

What can we really learn.....
« on: January 01, 2007, 02:21:45 PM »
......from our most famous "works in progress" golf courses from the early days?

I'm talking about those few courses in America that were essentially the life-long projects of their architects, and more remarkably in almost every case one of the so-called "amateur" architects (those who were never paid for anything they did in architecture).

That these few courses are also the ones that were and mostly still are the most famous and respected in America would seem to suggest that determining what it was about their creations that made them so unique from the rest and so famous is a most necessary thing to do.

So what was it that was different about their creations from most all the rest?

The most obvious trait seems to be that their original architects worked on them for so long, in almost every case for the rest of their lives;

1. Myopia---Leeds
2. NGLA---Macdonald
3. Merion East---Wilson/Flynn
4. Pine Valley----Crump
5. Oakmont----Fownes
6. Pinehurst #2----Ross

What other courses were created this way over such extended times? Maybe GCGC to some extent by two architects who spent years simultaneously in competition with one another at GCGC. And then there was ANGC and Bob Jones (Clifford Roberts) or perhaps Mackenzie/Hollins Pasatiempo.

To start with it would pretty much require that their original architects live at them or very near them for the remainder of their lives and in each of those listed above that's true.

They also changed them perhaps more than we are aware.

It just struck me how much Macdonald said he changed about NGLA from its original design---eg many greens were moved, lots of yardage was added from the original layout and bunkering was constantly changed.

Leeds constantly bunkered and rebunkered Myopia as did Fownes of Oakmont.

Hugh Wilson and Flynn completely rebuilt and in many cases changed the placement of up to seven greens at Merion East. They changed a number of the holes and also constantly evolved the look of the bunkering.

Six of PVGC's greens are different than they originally were, made so immediately after Crump's untimely death and probably under the understanding of what he wanted to do had he lived.

What about Pinehurst #2? Ross apparently never stopped changing it. Perhaps one could almost claim the same about his Essex.

So what can we learn?

I think we can learn that even if almost all those men basically started out as almost complete novices in architecture, and in almost every case with those projects they poured the rest of their lives into it did not matter at all that they had very limited experience starting off. As with the NIKE motto today their inspiration must have been "Just Do It".

I think those projects and the men that did them also proves that they did not need to be trained in architecture to begin, because most of them just weren't and hadn't been. They simply began and learned and learned and learned on those sole life projects of theirs.

I think those projects that produced those few courses so famous proves that if one spends as much time and effort as they did that something great might come along.

I think it proves that the way they found their talent and where they found their talent to produce what they did was simply in the dirt and in the time in the dirt they put in and not from training from someone else.

Myopia, NGLA, Merion East, Pine Valley, Oakmont, Pinehurst #2 all share that one common thread and that one common thread among them is one that is very rare in the world of architecture.

Like the great Ben Hogan explained that he found his remarkable game on his own in the dirt that he plied day after day for so many years, so did those few remarkable early architects, most of them amateurs and most originally almost complete novices when they began those projects that produced courses so famous and so good.

What do you think?



« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 03:24:39 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2007, 03:08:35 PM »
I think we learn that a novice can do a great job of designing, if he has years and years to make changes and fix his early misjudgements.

We might also learn that in at least some cases, design works out better if it springs entirely from the mind of a single person, without the need to respond to a client or to the market or to the needs of real estate.  But then again, we don't have numbers for how many projects have tried this same approach and been complete failures, or how many times collaborations have made a course better.

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2007, 03:37:19 PM »
"But then again, we don't have numbers for how many projects have tried this same approach and been complete failures, or how many times collaborations have made a course better."

TomD:

We don't? Perhaps there just weren't other courses and projects that someone poured his life into architecturally that were failures.

It occurs to me that we may even need to ask ourselves why it was that Merion and Merion East and West would've even thought to attempt the rather rare avenue of assigning a design and construction Committee and Chairman to create their new golf courses in Villanova.

Would it surprise you to know that Macdonald and Merion president Robert Lesley and Merion angel Rodman Griscom obviously knew each other and probably very well.

Should it really surprise anyone that Merion may've attempted to do their courses in this "amateur" mode simply because "amateur" architect Charles Blair Macdonald attempted the very same process in the preceding 3-4 years with NGLA? How experienced was Macdonald in architecture in 1907 anyway? Probably not experienced at all and hence a number of really massive mistakes such as two real total agronomic failures at NGLA. What had he done really other than a pretty early rudimentary course in Chicago over a decade previous?

It should probably not surprise any of us, if we really thought about it correctly, that Alan Wilson did not even refer to Macdonald as a golf architect. He only referred to him and Whigam as sportsmen and former amateur champions. Alan Wilson distinctly said that the Merion courses were "Homemade" and made without the use of a golf architect.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2007, 03:38:44 PM »
Tom(s) - Are there any modern examples?  Would Pete's on again off again work over 16 years at Pete Dye Club qualify?  Crooked Stick?  Is the economic impeditus and/or "splash opening" effect all too luring nowadays?

J

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2007, 03:54:13 PM »
Tom:

There are lots of recent examples of someone setting out to build a course themselves.  A few:

Twisted Dune (Archie Struthers)
Tidewater, in Myrtle Beach (Ken Tomlinson)
Bayonne GC (Eric Bergstol)
Porcupine Creek (Tim Blixseth)
Rich Harvest Farms (Jerry Rich)
one by Kenny Rogers on his estate in GA

and for some older ones that started that way:

Dornick Hills, Oklahoma (Perry Maxwell)
Alwoodley (Dr. MacKenzie)
Crooked Stick
Muirfield Village
Champions (sort of)


To suggest that golf courses can evolve for the better under careful guidance and observation by an amateur, I think is a proper suggestion ... Charles Darwin would most likely agree with you.

To suggest that there are no spectacular failures along similar lines is silly.  Just yesterday I was reading about a "pasture" course in Virginia that JFK and Jackie O mowed out on the farm they bought down there.  I'd never heard of that before.  I'm sure there are dozens of others that met the same fate.


Matthew Hunt

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Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2007, 04:31:40 PM »
Royal County Down and George Comb could be added to your list even do he is not the Original Architect

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2007, 05:58:41 PM »
Tom(s) - Are there any modern examples?  Would Pete's on again off again work over 16 years at Pete Dye Club qualify?  Crooked Stick?  Is the economic impeditus and/or "splash opening" effect all too luring nowadays?

J

Calling Pat Ruddy.   I'd love to see Pat interviewed for this site by Alfie Ward.  
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2007, 11:52:31 AM »
TomD:

Good post there on #4, and I think your post #1 probably hits the two primary points that we can learn from those early architects who dedicated the rest of their lives to those special long-term projects.

I shouldn't have implied that there were no failures of those types of architects and projects. I'm just not aware of what they were, but you listed a few. Obviously something like JFK and Jackie O mowing a field for golf isn't even in the same universe as the dedicated long term projects of Leeds's Myopia, Macdonald's NGLA, Wilson's Merion, Crump's Pine Valley, Fownes's Oakmont or Ross's Pinehurst #2.

But what else can we learn from what those early amateur architects did and the way they did it?

I think these are some of the areas that we can learn alot from them;

1/ In that early day and age of architecture in America there basically were no professional architects who had either the time or the inclination to do a really comprehensive architectural job on an American course. By a comprehensive job I mean a project that they might spend months on or a year or more, like all those early amateurs mentioned did.

Perhaps to say no professional architect did not have the time or inclination is not the correct way to put it. Perhaps a more accurate way to put it historically is basically there just wasn't a client who actually thought to use a professional architect that way on a long term basis. Perhaps that type of mindset had simply not evolved yet in America. Most of those early architects like the Findlays, Benedelow et al really were sort of a form of architectural Johnny Appleseeds who would be in and out of a project in a day or two. The fact that we really do have the term "Eighteen stakes on a Sunday Afternoon" should definitely not be lost on us if we are to understand American architecture in that early time and those first formative years or even decades. The likes of the Findlays and Bendelows of that time really only planted a seed for a day or so and then they were gone onto something else leaving those behind to fill in the blanks anyway they chose or could.

Who else could take the place of those early gentleman amateur architects if a club and project wanted really longterm dedication? The only other alternative was the likes of the immigrant Scots such as Dunn or Davis or even John Reid (not of St Andrews in NY) but the one who acted as pro/greenkeeper/architect/or even clubmaker for so many early clubs around here such as Atlantic City. Those men stayed at clubs and obviously continued to work the architecture of courses but their records with architecture is curiously pretty unimpressive on the whole.

Is it any wonder that the work of professional architect Willie Park Jr in the Heathlands with Sunningdale and Huntercombe was considered to be such a breakthrough in the evolution to quality golf architecture INLAND---and basically for the first time in the world?? After-all Park really did stay with those sites and projects for a few years. On one of them he was even an investor. He was the first professional to really put the time in on a project INLAND!

So who was left who could fill the void created by the lack of time in with projects of those early peripatetic player/professionals?

Obviously it was the "amateurs", those early gentlemen, club member, architects who were willing and able to put in the time, often years, often the rest of their lives into certain projects. First Leeds at Myopia, then Emmet at GCGC, then Macdonald at NGLA who was the first to really define the modus operandi to some serious fanfare with his four year project at NGLA from beginning to the time the course  opened for play. That fact alone probably really got golf's attention!

Is there really any question why Merion tapped club members Wilson and his Construction Committee to do Merion East and West? How and why would Merion have thought to do such a thing?

In my opinion, it was pretty simple really. Most all those gentlemen amateur golfers knew each other anyway back then. How did they get to know each other? There is no question at all if one merely reads who the participants  were in the Lesley Cup begun in 1905 at GCGC, and even the interstate competitions begun in 1900 that preceded the Lesley Cup by five years. The Lesley competition was between Philadelphia, New York and Massachussets, and Quebec was added after a time. The participants were Macdonald, Emmet, Tillinghast, perhaps Whigam, Crump, Carr, the Smiths, Perrin, Quimet, Travis, Travers, Behr et al.

(In the first few years of the Lesley Cup Competitions begun in 1905 Philadelphia was getting hammered so bad the Philadelphia team decided to create the Pennsylvania Golf Association of which I was the president last year. I've also played in the Lesley Cup for the last decade. Why was the Pennsylvania Golf Association started in 1907-8? For basically one reason---to get W.C. Fownes from Pittsburgh to play for the team. In 1910 Fownes would win the US Amateur. He would also be a real moving force not just in the architecture of Oakmont but in the architecture of Pine Valley after Crump died).

From Merion itself Lesley was the club's president and Rodman Griscom, a big man in the Lesley Competetions in the early days was to become the first president of Merion Golf Club. Rodman Griscom was the moving spirit of Merion Cricket Clubs move to Ardmore Ave, and ironically away from the first Merion Cricket Club on leased land of which the second nine holes actually belonged to his father Clement Griscom.

Is it any wonder that Merion chose the amateur architect route that they did? Lesley and Griscom were completely familiar with Macdonald for all kinds of reasons not the least being the Lesley Cup. Today we look at NGLA as the first really good eighteen hole course in America but back then they probably looked at him as an amateur sportsman who thought to devote his time and energies to a single golf course as had not really been done before in America. Obviously Merion felt if C.B could do what he did at NGLA beginning with real lack of architectural experience they could too with Wilson and his Merion Construction Committee!

This was the new modus operandi of creating great architecture in America for the first time---eg Myopia's Leeds, Emmet's GCGC, Oakmont's Fownes, NGLA's Macdonald, Thomas's Marion and Whitemarsh Valley, Tillinghast's Shawnee, all before 1910. Quickly followed after 1910-11 by Merion's Wilson, 1912-13 by Pine Valley's Crump, all gentlemen, clubmember amateurs who did not even refer to each other in the beginning as "architects" (Alan WIlson's mentioned that Merion never used an "architect" by that meaning Hugh Wilson and even C.B. Macdonald).

And look what those amateur created!

What else can we learn?

Probably that back in that day professional architecture and professional golf architects were simply not remotely like what they were to eventually become after WW1 and into the 1920s and on. I don't think even we on here are enough aware of that fact and what it all really meant back then

The subject of the lack of understanding of agronomy back then is something else we can learn and what was done to eventually overcome that. Again, Hugh Wilson figures more prominently in this early evolution of golf agronomy than most have ever known. In a sense it was he woh would basically set the stage for the USGA Green Section. Most probably don't even know that he and his early cohorts in early agronomy almost convinced President Woodrow Wilson to get the US Department of Agriculture to take on the development of American golf agronomy!!

This was some time in American architecture---eg a gestation period for something amazing to come, a searching for how to define it all, a quest to set standards of cost, quality, understanding----a roadmap, in fact, for the future of golf and its architecture in America.

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2007, 12:06:00 PM »
TomD:

I guess the next question, or one that will probably inevitable follow on a thread and subject like this one is whether it's possible for that type of gentleman clubmember/amateur architect to do today what those guys did back then, and in the end with such remarkable eventual results?

I guess one could make the case that it could be done again like that. After-all is it really reasonable to assume that they were merely a select group in time that possessed a type of amateur talent that would never be seen again?

I don't think so.

But the point is that today why would anyone even bother anymore?

Today all anyone needs to do is hire a good professional architect who both can and will put most of the time and effort into projects that they did back then. By that i mean months, perhaps a year or two. Not to mention all the problems that they faced back then have to a large extent been solved over the years, perhaps the most being the excuriating problems of not just growing grass but getting it to endure into longterm golf "turf".

They had to do it themselves like that back then because they just didn't have a real viable alternative in that early time, and that's probably what we need to learn and understand most about all them and all this.

Frankly, for any of us to even assume that Charles Blair Macdonald had become some big architectural expert to tap in 1910 is probably dreaming too. The historical fact is that he had as many or more problems to face and solve with NGLA's architecture and agronomy and no real place or person to turn to solve them, as Wilson would have or Crump would have or probably most of the rest of those types of men had in that early day.

We probably even need to ask how much Macdonald really did understand in 1910? The truth is he may not have understood back then what we think today he did understand back then. The fact is he was just the first in America who really did it in a way (in a unique modus operandi) those amateurs who followed him did.

And for that alone, for that interesting modus operandi that to a large extent he developed himself, he became known as "The Father of American Golf Course Architecture".

How different it all must have been. In fact it really was so much more different than we think.  ;)

But another question to which you have already supplied a pretty good answer, is that those who followed him obviously decided for some reason and pretty quickly not to try to copy holes on the other side but to use whatever architectural principles they'd learned to conceive of and make their very own with the natural and unique assets of their particular sites.

Both how and why and even when they all seemed to depart from Macdonald's basic architectural style and model is probably more interesting to look into than what Macdonald did at NGLA and what he started with it, the first great eighteen hole course in America.

Maybe Macdonald's example brought those early architects, both amateur and professional, who followed him about halfway, perhaps not even that far.

The proof is in the pudding. All we have to do is look at it very carefully, both the way those courses were back then and still are today!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 12:30:19 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2007, 05:21:22 PM »
Tom:

I would agree with nearly all of what you said, though I hope this does not become another extension of the Merion argument or I will bow out gracefully ... I don't have the time for that discussion.

A great example of your last post would be Ken Bakst.  If he'd been alive in 1910 he would have done the same thing as Bill Fownes, and maybe as well.  But today he knows he's better off getting Bill Coore to help him realize his dream (and watch his pennies).  His potential members are more demanding of instant success today, too ... if he tried to do the course by himself, it might go broke before he got it right.

A great example of your post previous to that is Dr. MacKenzie.  Some people have wondered why MacKenzie didn't do more great courses in the UK prior to going international, whether it was just a matter of timing with the war.  But the truth is, he couldn't find clients to pay him for spending any time on those projects.  Lots of his work in the UK and Ireland was done on consulting visits of one or two or three DAYS.  (The same is true of other projects as well ... Royal Adelaide, New South Wales, Palmetto, etc.)  It was only when he came to America that he could charge a big fat design fee so he could justify spending more of his time on the details, but by then he was so used to finding guys like Morcom or Hunter or Maxwell, that he didn't really have to spend much time on a project to feel it was his own.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 05:22:51 PM by Tom_Doak »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2007, 08:36:51 PM »
I just reread what is describbed as a compilation of Ross's notes and manuscripts, that were actually composed for the most part by 1914, found in "Golf Has Never Failed Me".  I reread it with all the Merion thread commentary and the debate of whose input was most influential, who should be the architect of record, etc.

I also have been re-reading Stuart Bendelow's book and commentaries of where his Grandfather was at professionally by the 1908-15 period.  

I am begining to wonder if many of Bendelow's comments and Ross's observations weren't soft handed criticism of the design and build process's at NGLA, Merion, and Pine Valley.  I say that in the context of him commenting several times in his brief essays on how to do certain construction techniques, that he starts out by saying, he is aware of the shortcomings and overly expensive and inefficient circumstances of recent major club efforts mostly in the area of failed agronomy and drainage considerations.  (paraphrased-not exact quote)

What if Ross was specifically referring to MacDonald influencing Wilson and Crump, and the fact that these men were fronting committees that had ideas, but ran into problems.  Was he saying it was the case of the blind leading the blind to the extent that they had ventured and got stumped excessively on agronomy and drainage sort of issues unnecessarily, if they would have hired a guy like him or Bendelow, who had already been dealing with these issues here in the new land as opposed to methods of practiced on the "old sod".

If you read those short and simple comments found in the book, "Golf Has Never Failed Me" with that in the back of your mind, and re-read Bende's quotes from publications of that time, you might get the idea they were putting down the process that the committee's encountered at Merion, Pine Valley, etc because they didn't hire them, the old world come to America 'golf course architects'.

Or, you may just see the Ross and Bende comments as "marketing" their experience to the wider audience of the many municipalities and private entities in the 1910-20 period that were just begining to think about jumping into this new crazy fad of golf that was sweeping the country... and trying to encourage new planning efforts not to go the committee route that the Merion, Pine Valley and Oakmont CCs followed because they were in the business...

Just another hypothesis to think about..... or not. :-\ ::) ::)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 08:41:19 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2007, 08:40:33 PM »
RJ:  Absolutely.  Architects have never been above sniping at others' perceived weaknesses ... we are all so good at what we do, we have plenty of time to correct others' mistakes.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 08:43:19 PM »
Tom, I just editted my last post at the same time you responded to basically those same thoughts.  Bidness is bidness, and competition is similar then and now, I'm sure... ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 08:55:30 PM »
RJ:  Absolutely.  Architects have never been above sniping at others' perceived weaknesses ... we are all so good at what we do, we have plenty of time to correct others' mistakes.

Tom Doak:
That is the most accurate, honest post I have ever read on GCA.

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2007, 08:57:47 PM »
TomD:

First of all, thank you for taking the time to even read all of those great big long posts of mine, as well as to respond to them.

The second thing and the real good news is I've been getting a few emails from people who are readers and lurkers, not contributors to GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com who are telling me thank God for this thread which is basically historically philosophical as opposed to the excruciating multi-way vendetta that are those sad Merion threads.

A thread like this one, I doubt can continue on if you don't participate in it. I'm not much of a flatterer but I think you know that's the truth.

"Tom:
I would agree with nearly all of what you said, though I hope this does not become another extension of the Merion argument or I will bow out gracefully ... I don't have the time for that discussion."

TomD:

I can sure understand that.

"A great example of your last post would be Ken Bakst."

That's very interesting to me indeed. Ken Bakst and I know each other basically because of the coincidental timing of our involvment with Bill Coore. When I first got to know Ken, pretty much on the phone at first, we would just tell each other amusing stories about dealing with Bill but they were always on the truly admiring side with what it was about to deal with him.

The most poignant and meaningful of all to me was when Ken told him how he came to realize how he probably needed to give up on something he really cared about in deference to Bill. I think it had something to do with the 9th green. He said how hard it was but he had finally come to realize what Bill was all about and not just where he was coming from but where he was going. Ken Bakst is a pretty strong willed guy but no one ever said he wasn't a smart guy and that's was pretty much proved to me when he told me just how he came to really learn from Bill and on something that was going to be different from what he might've had his heart set on, even if it may've been kind of trivial in the broad scheme of things. I know I can't tell you how hard it was to give up on some of the little things you might first believe in.

For me the most meaninful thing with Bill back then with Friar's Head and eventually with Ken was when Bill pulled a whole bunch of snaphots out of his back pocket not long after I first met him here on my project and he asked me what I thought he should or even could do with that enormous mound that now fronts the 10th green. I had no understanding of any of it back then. For some reason I assumed it might be a par 4. All I said was I was sure he could find some way to keep something like that or most of it as a truly remarkable natural feature on a hole.

"If he'd been alive in 1910 he would have done the same thing as Bill Fownes, and maybe as well.  But today he knows he's better off getting Bill Coore to help him realize his dream (and watch his pennies).  His potential members are more demanding of instant success today, too ... if he tried to do the course by himself, it might go broke before he got it right."

That is just so true to me. Ken Bakst back in 1910 would've been a Fownes or Wilson or Crump but back in 1910 there were no Bill Coores to spend the "time-on" a project that Bill did at Friars Head. And I think that's the whole and very point we are beginning to agree on here in the historical context of all this---eg the way it was back then compared to now.

"A great example of your post previous to that is Dr. MacKenzie.  Some people have wondered why MacKenzie didn't do more great courses in the UK prior to going international, whether it was just a matter of timing with the war.  But the truth is, he couldn't find clients to pay him for spending any time on those projects."

Again, my very point. Even the professional back then didn't have clients who understood why they should use them for more than a day or two.
 

"Lots of his work in the UK and Ireland was done on consulting visits of one or two or three DAYS.  (The same is true of other projects as well ... Royal Adelaide, New South Wales, Palmetto, etc.)  It was only when he came to America that he could charge a big fat design fee so he could justify spending more of his time on the details, but by then he was so used to finding guys like Morcom or Hunter or Maxwell, that he didn't really have to spend much time on a project to feel it was his own."

Again, totally true of the reality of professional architecture back then compared to today. Is it any real wonder those great "amateur" architects existed back then and did what they did? The truth is they did not have the alternative back then to hire someone to help them as dedicatedly as most professional architects can and will today.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2007, 09:31:10 PM »
Of course, MacKenzie was himself the amateur architect at Alwoodley, because just as at Pine Valley, Mr. Colt was too busy to stick around ... er, Mr. Colt was off to another job because the cheap so-and-so's wouldn't pay him to stay.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 09:32:10 PM by Tom_Doak »

Chris Parker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2007, 10:08:19 PM »
What other courses were created this way over such extended times?

From my recent re-reading of the Addington review on GCA, I'd say that it fits the bill.  J. F. Abercromby is described as the "benevolent dictator" who coined the term "I am the suggestion box!"
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2007, 10:31:29 PM »
"Of course, MacKenzie was himself the amateur architect at Alwoodley, because just as at Pine Valley, Mr. Colt was too busy to stick around ... er, Mr. Colt was off to another job because the cheap so-and-so's wouldn't pay him to stay.    ;)

TomD:

What are you talking?

If Crump had actually paid Colt one tenth of that purported $10,000 for one week Joe Baker as an 87 year old man said 40 years later Crump paid Colt for one week in 1913, I'm pretty sure Harry would've stayed around for a couple of years and designed every detail of PVGC and would've become Crump's man-slave and pissboy. Harry probably would've sent Mrs Colt home on the next liner and married George, for Christ-sake.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2007, 09:18:04 AM »
It's also possible that MacKenzie and Crump kept Mr. Colt up too late with their enthusiasm in talking about all their ideas to make the course better, and he felt he had to escape.

There's another fact we might learn though ... both Colt and MacKenzie felt that it was wise to hire a professional to help with the routing of the course, because that was the part with which they were most uncomfortable.  Macdonald also hired Raynor to help him find a good place to build a Redan and an Alps.

TEPaul

Re:What can we really learn.....
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2007, 09:31:58 AM »
TomD:

I have no idea about MacKenzie and the routing of Alwoodley and needing to get Colt to help him out but I have very little doubt I've now completely figured out precisely how Colt unraveled the routing problems Crump was having early on at PV.

It's pretty amazing really how an adjustment on one hole can sometimes get most of the rest to just fall into place pretty quick. To me that's a great example of the "jigsaw" effect on routing iterations. It does not surprise me at all that Colt was praised so much for his suggestion on the 5th hole.

That's not all he did there in a routing sense but that one adjustment I firmly believe got the rest to just fall right into place----except obviously Crump's on-going dilemma of how to route and design out in the #12-15 area.

But the thing that really is pretty interesting about Crump in the later years with that routing is he seemed to constantly try to slide back towards some of either the green sites or the types of holes he had on that back nine that he first wanted to use even though he obviously understood the basic jigsaw puzzle of the routing was pretty much set.

Even at the very end of his life he could not get comfortable with #15 and was considering trying to turn #16 back into the par 5 he originally had it as.

If you ask me if PVGC had had that unbelievable "Cape" hole as #14, and #15 as a big long par 4 and #16 as a par 5 with a green down there sort of behind where the present 14th green now is that golf course just might be even better than it is and always has been.

The other thing that suffered, in my opinion, with Crump's death is he never got to finish off #7 as the double dogleg he wanted it to be and had already rearranged the green to be. He also wanted the 11th green to be up on the hill next to the windmill and he wanted #9 to be a dogleg left bringing that "principles nose" bunker on the right side much more into play. He also wanted that 6th green about another 40 yards back and right up near the end of the ridge.

Apparently when people asked Crump when the hell he was ever going to finish that golf course his usual stentorian response was "NEVER!"

I guess that mindset fits in pretty well with the theme of this thread that some of those early amateur architects who tended to make these few courses their life's work may've intended to do just that. If so, the only real determinant for those courses became when it was exactly that they died.

And as we know most of them did die with those projects still going.

Mackenzie threw a pretty cool wrinkle into that theme though by swiping some Alwoodley member's wife and then pretty much getting castigated out of the club for it and having to escape to the other side of the world.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 09:52:40 AM by TEPaul »