[Phil Benedict]

I make an annual pilgrimage to Pine Needles in the spring.  One of my favorite holes is the second, a downhill par 4 with a front-to-back sloping green.  Unlike most golf holes where the tendency is to come up short on an approach (because most golfers underclub), someone invariably goes through the green on the approach at this hole because they fail to take the slope of the green into account, particularly in firm conditions.  This is one hole where the ground approach works better even for a high ball hitter.  Why aren't more greens designed with a front-to-back slope to enhance the ground option?

[Jason Blasberg]

Phil:

The answer to your question is it depends on whether the pin is up or back.  Most of the time irrespective of tilt, back pins favor running approaches and front pins favor spinning approaches.

Jason

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jason I'm not sure I'd agree, particularly if the green is firm and there's a steep fall away it will take a Garcia to hold the green by spinning the ball. Also I've played a number of these where there's a drop in front of the green or a small mound and only a runing shot offers a safe approach to the front.

As to encoraging the ground game, well then yes it does.  I would say it's much easier to learn  to run the ball than it is to spin the ball back.  Flat soft greens and those that rise  to the rear do not encorage ground options but those sloping away do in most cases.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony- I nearly always try and incorporate one green that falls towards the back and whilst I like the concept personally, its not popular with the majority of the golfers. I think many see it as a constructional error rather than an intention.

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, is that #11 at Delamere Forest?    Super par 5 over the hill to a fallaway green.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bill it's the entirely wonderful 430 par 4 17th at Hainault Forrest Upper.  I can think of a number of par 5's that work well with a fall away green, the 2nd at the Addington (or Croydon National as Mark Chaplin has it) and the 6th at Worplesdon. Normal players need some run or bounce to play these in two shots but can you control it?

I posted on Hainault Forrest Lower earlier in the week and drew attention to it sharing some characteristeics with the Old Course including front to back greens.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27344
I've yet to play TOC but don't a number of holes fall away?  Did CBM copy any fall aways other than the Redan?

Adrian stick to your guns. When I play in societies and the have a prize for nearest the pin in two shots, then a short par four with a fall away is a tremendous antidote to the longest drive mentality and gives everyone a chance. These kind of holes move a certain kind of golfer out of their comfort Zone.

Hasn't Ran spec'd them for the Carthage Club? 'nuff said.

[TEPaul]

"Re:Do front-to-back sloped greens encourage the ground approach?"

I don't know that I would say that, Tony, but most of the best ones I know require a whole lot more thought and execution to play to than the far more common back to front type.

[JESII]

Phil,

I think firm conditions dictate a variety of shot types more and better than green slope direction. But, all things being equal, I would bounce it in to a front to back sloping green more than a back to front slope.

[Kalen Braley]

Even with the ground option it takes a lot of practice to learn how to play these shots.

Take for example #18 at PacDunes. When I played it last, it had a front left hole location and after my 2nd shot I only had 80 yards in.  From there I hit a SW that landed 5 yards short of the green, bounced forward, rolled to the green and continued to roll all the way to the back of the green.

To this day I still have no clue how I could have played that any different with the exception of landing it even shorter of the green and just barely trickle on to the putting surface.

Tom any insight on how to play that hole location on 18?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I don't think there's one answer.

I think conditions of the day, hole location and the golfer's play of the day dictate how best to approach these greens.

Ideally, a golfer would prefer to be below the hole, leaving an uphill putt, however, when trouble looms behind the green and the hole is located in the back of the green, leaving an approach short of the hole may be the safer tactic.

In the real world, I think most tend to approach these green aerially, because they can't depend upon turf conditions fronting the green.

All too often, the approach to the green is soft, which defeats play along the ground.

Given the option of a known quality versus an unknown quality, golfers will opt for the aerial approach.

Wind, turf conditions on the green and fronting the green, the juxtaposition of hazards, hole locations,the golfers game and his comfort zone all infuence the decision the golfer must make.

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