[Doug Ralston]

To those who, in the thread or in private message, have pointed out that my three recommendations are not on the list because they haven't been played, this: I KNOW! That was my point.

I know what contempt Golf Digest lists are held here, but please DO note that they have all three been in the Best New Affordables list in the last couple years. Not for nothing. And since every single public course in Kentucky qualifies as 'affordable', that is the only list they can make.

So, once again, play the courses so you CAN rate them! They are all a treat.

Kentucky indeed is NOT a 'destination'; yet. Perhaps when GW raters discover it and begin giving it some public airing, it will become one. It is one of the cheapest States to visit, and has a lot of other attractions [like I said earlier, for example, Dale Hollow has a stupendous course and the best smallmouth bass fishing anywhere, extremely beautiful island filled lake].

Please also note: Doug lives in Ohio; he just golfs in Kentucky because it is better there.

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

The difference between New York and a fair number of the Midwest states is that in the middle of America the percentage of golfers from the total population is greater than The Empire State. If memory serves, I believe Minnesota has the greatest percentage of golfers from its total population.

Wisconsin can't be that far behind.

If you want to find tenacious golfers the Midwest is hard to beat no matter how harsh the weather might be IMHO.

Phil, c'mon when you say you "generally" agree in regards to the state of public golf in NY and Pennsy. What is their not to agree with what I said. You take any two other states in the Union and I'll take NY and Pennsy as the two best examples in which the gap between the best private and public are separated by that far apart. No two other states come close.

The investors you think would be automatically connected to NY don't exist. Much of New York State is operating under near recession terms in terms of overall employment and future prospects -- frankly a good number of towns are closer to ghost town status than boom towns.

In regards to Kohler keep in mind the close proximity to the greater Chicago / Milwaukee area helps to draw customers.

Hope this info helps ...

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt,

There is no way on this earth that Ohio does not belong in your 'state' discussion. Ohio has some of the best privates in the world and absolutely nothing of consequence on the public side.

[Matt_Ward]

Glenn:

Not a chance buckeroo.

New York and Pennsy are better than Ohio on the
private side -- greater overall depth and better at the very elite top -- and the public side from the Buckeye State -- from the ones I have played -- is better than the dregs you get from The Empire and Keystone States respectively IMHO.

[Doug Wright]

Here's the list for snowed under Colorado:

  Colorado
1. Lakota Canyon, New Castle (m)* ENGH
2. Red Sky (Norman), Wolcott (m)*
3. Red Sky (Fazio), Wolcott (m)
4. Pradera, Parker (m)* ENGH
5. Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction (m) ENGH
6. Fossil Trace, Golden (m)* ENGH
7. Broadmoor (East), Colorado Springs (c)
8. Haymaker, Steamboat Springs (m)*
9. Breckenridge GC, Breckenridge (m)
10. River Valley Ranch, Carbondale (m)

I have played 1, 4 (Is Pradera public access?), 6, 7 and 9. Clearly Jim Engh has fared well in this survey, with 4 of the top 6. Maybe the Q was asked above, but what are the criteria being considered? The top 6 courses all have a lot of WOW factor in them, with strong topography at work/play, and I think they are all fairly new--5-6 years old or less. I played Broadmoor East again this summer and after some recent work this classic course should be a top 5 course in this state no question.  Pretty interesting that some of the solid Denver area courses that usually show up on these lists like The Ridge @ Castle Pines North (T. Weiskopf), Riverdale Dunes (Pete/Perry Dye & Doak) and Murphy Creek (K. Kavanaugh) are omitted. I played Riverdale Dunes last month before the snow and it is a strong course that belongs in the top 10 IMO. I'd think next time look for Antler Creek Golf Course (Rick Phelps) near Colorado Springs and Highland Meadows (Art Schaupeter) near Fort Collins to show up.

[Brock Peyer]

I am not even going to question the order or inclusion of some of these courses, my question is this:  Hawaii has 15 courses listed and PA and NC have 10 courses listed?!?!?  Huh??!?!?

[Brock Peyer]

I must admit, that I am embarassed to have only played 9 of the courses but I am not one to brag that I am well travelled.

[Doug Wright]

From a tour of some RTJ Trail courses last spring, I'm surprised that (I think) only one Trail course is on the Alabama list, Grand National Lake, and it isn't even the better of the two courses at the facility! IMO Grand National Links is a far better golf course from every perspective.

Alabama
1. Limestone Springs, Oneonta (m)
2. Kiva Dunes, Gulf Shores (m)
3. Capstone Club, Brookwood (m)*
4. FarmLinks Golf Club at Pursell Farms, Sylacauga (m)
5. Grand National (Lake), Opelika (m)

The New Mexico list looks good to me, though I prefer Black Mesa to Paa-Ko Ridge based on the qualities that I consider important (design/routing/variety/fun).

New Mexico
1. Paa-Ko Ridge, Sandia Park (No. 37 m)
2. Black Mesa, La Mesilla (No. 62 m)
3. Twin Warriors, Santa Ana Pueblo (m)
4. Pinion Hills GC, Farmington (m)
5. University of New Mexico (South), Albuquerque (m)

[Brian Cenci]

Brian Cenci

I agree Michigan's list is very good.  I too would consider the following:

Yarrow GC
Shepherd's Hollow GC
Marywood CC
True North GC (semi-private right now)
The Mines GC (too new for the list I know)
Angels Crossing GC (again too new for the list)
Eagle Eye GC (most likely too new)
The Cheif GC at Sky Lodge
Shanty Creek GC - Cedar River

I would think states like California, New York, Michigan, etc could go 20 deep with the amount of quality public golf.

Chris

Chris,
  Yea...Yarrow, The Chief, Shanty Creek - Cedar River, Mines, True North are all what I would consider a group of 30 courses in Michigan that could be lumped in the #12 - #15 category.  Would include courses like Thoroughbred, Bucks Run, St. Ives, Hawk's Eye, Boyne - Ross Memorial, A-Ga-Ming - Sundance, etc.  There's a lot of those types of courses in Michigan.

-Brian

[Phil McDade]

Phil:

The difference between New York and a fair number of the Midwest states is that in the middle of America the percentage of golfers from the total population is greater than The Empire State. If memory serves, I believe Minnesota has the greatest percentage of golfers from its total population.

Wisconsin can't be that far behind.

If you want to find tenacious golfers the Midwest is hard to beat no matter how harsh the weather might be IMHO.

Phil, c'mon when you say you "generally" agree in regards to the state of public golf in NY and Pennsy. What is their not to agree with what I said. You take any two other states in the Union and I'll take NY and Pennsy as the two best examples in which the gap between the best private and public are separated by that far apart. No two other states come close.

The investors you think would be automatically connected to NY don't exist. Much of New York State is operating under near recession terms in terms of overall employment and future prospects -- frankly a good number of towns are closer to ghost town status than boom towns.

In regards to Kohler keep in mind the close proximity to the greater Chicago / Milwaukee area helps to draw customers.

Hope this info helps ...

Matt:

Agree on percentage of golfers; Minnesota and Wisconsin have very dedicated golfers. But I'm not sure that necessarily jibes with your argument re. high-end courses and investor willingness to finance them. My sense is that a large percentage of that large percentage of Wisconsin/Minnesota golfers are golfing at fairly run of the mill places, like I do. Agree on Herb -- he was very shrewd to locate his courses where he did, given the Milwaukee/Chicago corridor and relatively easy access from the Fox Valley, Madison and even Twin Cities.

I don't have the depth of familiarity with publics in New York and Pa., and the elite privates there are obviously some of the best in the country. But the "generally" qualifier comes from my experience in Ohio -- where the private elite is probably a notch below NY/PA, but still pretty good -- and the publics aren't great (although getting better); and Illinois, where the private elite is awfully good, and the publics don't exactly overwhelm me.

Um, hasn't the stock market had a pretty good run lately? Aren't many of the nation's high-end benefactors of such a good run geographically located in NY/PA, especially relative to Wisconsin and Minnesota? Aren't some of those investors golfers? If they see destination courses working in, say, the Iron Range of Minnesota (which has had an economic downturn that would make Elmira look like a picnic), why can't similar destination courses work in, say, the Finger Lakes region?

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt:

Inverness
Scioto
MVGC
The Golf Club
Camargo
Canterbury
NCR
Sand Ridge
Scarlet
Columbus
Miami Valley
The Country Club
Kirtland
Double Eagle
Moraine
Brookside-Canton
Firestone
Sharon
Coldstream


Those are all private clubs. Nothing on the public side worth playing for the most part. New York has The Black and Penn has a few publics that I would like to see. There is nothing in Ohio public that I would recommend to anyone. What does Pennsylvania have that beats those in Ohio as far as depth?

[Glenn Spencer]

Phil,

Good point on Illinois privates, but their publics BLOW Ohio out of the water.

[Phil McDade]

Glenn:

It's been a while since I've golfed in Ohio, but friends suggest it's getting better.

Is the Illinois top 10 list fairly on the mark? I sort of chuckle every time someone insists Cog Hill could be revved up for an Open/PGA -- I've watched the Western a lot, and little there save for the 16th (the one with the ravine?) looks of interest. Kemper Lakes, Cantigny and the Glen Club -- I never hear much about them in the worthiness department from golfing friends. Several friends do say the General in Galena is quite good -- maybe because a Wisconsin guy had a hand in it!

[Jordan Wall]

IMO Ohio's list is garbage:

Ohio

1. Longaberger, Nashport
2. Shaker Run, Lebanon
3. Boulder Creek, Streetsboro
4. Avalon G&CC (Avalon/Lakes), Warren
5. Hickory Hills, Grove
6. Aston, North Bend
7. Stonewater, Cleveland
8. Rattlesnake Ridge, Sundbury
9. Elk's Run, Batavia
10. Cooke's Creek, Columbus

Its nice to see Art Hills FINALLY getting the respect he deserves

















 

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
Haven't played either one actually. If I was going to be in the area and had to pick between them I'd try Trophy Club first based on good experiences with other Liddy courses, but that doesn't really mean much for a direct comparison.

At the risk of repeating myself too many times...Sultan's Run is my favorite Indiana public course, Rock Hollow and The Fort are 2 and 3. Blackthorn in South Bend I would guess is as good or better than some of the Indy publics too.

[Dan_Callahan]

Rhode Island's got a huge disparty between public and private.

Private:
Newport C.C.
Wannamoisett C.C.
Rhode Island C.C.  
Carnegie Abbey G.C.

Public:
Newport National (which was supposed to be private and might still go that route)

Everything else sucks, although Triggs would be okay with some renovation work.

[Jeff Doerr]

Jordan and other Washingtonians...

What's up with WA only have 5 worthy of the list? There must be 5 other worthy candidates.


Washington
1. Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton (m)
2. Trophy Lake Golf & Casting, Port Orchard (m)
3. Semiahmoo, Blaine (m)
4. Port Ludlow Resort (Tide/Timber), Port Ludlow (m)
5. Desert Canyon, Oreland (m)

[Chris_Blakely]

Brian

I would not put Bucks Run or St. Ives on the list / in that group of 30, but I would agree with your statement that their about 30 or so courses in Michigan that could occupy the last 4 to 5 spots on the list.  Bucks Run has some good holes around the old quarry and on the back 9; however, their are about 7 to 9 bland holes out there.

Dan Callahan

I have always heard good things about Montaup??  I wanted to get out there last year when I did a whirlwind tour of the Northeast.  Thus, I was only able to get in Triggs.  In talking to the two other gents I was paired with at Triggs, they had good things to say about Montaup.

Chris
Chris

[Chris_Clouser]

Glenn,

I guess you can call me crazy!!  

I can see how someone would prefer Trophy Club over Purgatory, but to me the green complexes at Purgatory and the greenside bunkering make it better.  But that is probably my taste.  The first time I played the course I wasn't overly enthused, but after playing it multiple times I've been converted.  Trophy Club was very good and is probably my #2 in the state that I have played behind Purgatory.  But having seen a lot of Dye/Liddy courses it didn't have the impact I guess.  But I wouldn't begrudge anybody for placing Trophy ahead of Purgatory.  I would probably put the Fort right behind them at #3.  All of them are different courses that just appeal to different tastes I think.  I actually know people that can't stand any of them though, like my father.  He thinks Bear Slide is better than all of them.  

Andy,

What else is good up north?  I've heard good things about Blackthorn and also Cobblestone up near Fort Wayne.  My brother-in-law thinks it is the best public in that part of the state.  But he is highly impressed by things of little substance.  He did marry my sister after all!  

Insert rim shot here.  
   

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
In terms of public courses, I think the northern part of the state is somewhat lacking. The northwest doesn't have much of anything...Aberdeen probably has the best reputation but its housing golf and a bunch of layup-position shots that I don't find to be much fun. Haven't played White Hawk but I never really wanted to.

Blackthorn and Warren are the class of the South Bend area. I enjoy Erskine, one of the two munis, but its not in the class of the others. Cobblestone and Mystic Hills are both nice enough, but I don't get real excited about driving an hour to either one of them very often. I don't think Fort Wayne has very good public golf...there's nothing there that I've played and would care to go back to just for the course...other than maybe Brookwood which I last played at age 10 and don't remember at all

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jeff,

      As a former resident of Washington, who has played about 75 public courses there, I can tell you the quality is not high for the public golfer.  Some candidates for top 10 could be:  the former Vicwood/Meriwood complex, Indian Canyon, Druids Glen, Washington National, Trilogy, Homestead, Eaglemont, Gold Mountain Cascade, etc.....

All solid courses with some flaws but nothing worth traveling cross country for.

[John Goodman]

From a tour of some RTJ Trail courses last spring, I'm surprised that (I think) only one Trail course is on the Alabama list, Grand National Lake, and it isn't even the better of the two courses at the facility! IMO Grand National Links is a far better golf course from every perspective.

Alabama
1. Limestone Springs, Oneonta (m)
2. Kiva Dunes, Gulf Shores (m)
3. Capstone Club, Brookwood (m)*
4. FarmLinks Golf Club at Pursell Farms, Sylacauga (m)
5. Grand National (Lake), Opelika (m)

I think the Alabama list and its lack of Trail courses is pretty insightful.  The Trail courses are good and enjoyable to play but have a marked sameness to them architecturally (a thread not too long ago referred to them as the Red Lobster or Olive Garden of GCA).  The top four on the list are better than anything on the Trail, or at least as good, IMHO.   If you did a top ten public in the state, Trail courses would dominate the bottom half though.  

[Dan_Callahan]

I have always heard good things about Montaup??  I wanted to get out there last year when I did a whirlwind tour of the Northeast.  Thus, I was only able to get in Triggs.  In talking to the two other gents I was paired with at Triggs, they had good things to say about Montaup.

Montaup is okay, probably next on the list of publics. But it doesn't compare to the quality of the privates.

It is very short (6,400 yards, I think) and there are a few holes that run next to the highway. Some great views at various points. The last time I played there, it was a Saturday in summer and they were allowing fivesomes! It was one of the longest rounds of my life. I will only go back in the off-season.

[Chris_Blakely]

Sean,

As I said in an earlier reply, I think the Michigan list is very good.  I also thought New York's list and New Jersey's list were very good as well.  On both lists, I may have switched a couple, but the courses on the list are for the most part worthy.

I too am glad to see Belvedere on the Michigan list.  I meerly suggested some others for the latter 5 spots.  My feeling on Marywood is as follows: if Hershey CC (old) is good enough to make the list in PA (I assume Golfweek means Hershey CC - West course) which was designed by Maurice McCarthy and is very good, then the Maurice McCarthy designed Marywood course which is also very good, should be considered for Michigan's list.

I agree Shepherd's Hollow should be on the list.  I did not think Hunter's Ridge was that great.  Good for a Mathews course, but nothing special.

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

Sean;

You REALLY can't see why Shepard's Hollow is left off? How about Red Hawk? Think about it.

Musta been some hard tongue biting to leave the obvious Bay Harbor in there without even commenting that " ******* whomever coulda done better with that piece of land"!

ROFL

Doug

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