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Steve Curry

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Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« on: January 31, 2010, 07:37:28 AM »
I was about to reply to Tom on the Vesper thread with this question, What is your prefered green turf?

Thanks,
Steve

Mark Luckhardt

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 07:59:58 AM »
Velvet bentgrass, but rare.Belmont CC in MA had the best velvet before their reno. Oakmonts poa was the strongest,healthiest sward we have ever dealt with though. Also, it was cut the lowest at the time we were there.

Bill Rocco

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 08:33:32 AM »
Poa is the best, we see it at all the top courses managed to perfection, it has it flaws (drought stress, anthracnose), but bentgrass is a killer to manage, it is susceptible to more diseases than poa, when it done correctly nothing rolls better. California with the nematode problem, is the only place outside of hot weather climates I believe it shouldn't be. Fewer people know it but Poa grows denser than bent with higher seedhead production compared to bents stoloniferious method of spreading. Also, remember this bentgrass is native to scotland (other than bred cultivars) poa is native to here, we are trying to grow something on our golf course that is not really "suppose" to be there so natural issues are going to come about. It is recommended that you cut bentgrass even creeping no lower than .125 or 1/8, whereas Poa as Oakmont only limitation is scalping the crown. I been part of a club that managed the poa correctly and rolled with heavy salsco rollers to get rid fo the "bumpy" feel and I believe we achieved it quite nicely.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 08:42:05 AM by Bill Rocco »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 10:05:24 AM »
Steve:

I try not to have one preferred anything in golf course design.  Different choices will be better for different places.

I am the world's biggest proponent of fescue greens.  If you have fescue fairways and not fescue greens, it is only a matter of time before the bentgrass creeps out into the surrounds, and you lose the tight surface that's so good for putting from 20-30 yards off the green.  But, I wouldn't put in fescue greens unless the soils were suitable for the greens and the fairways.

If the situation calls for bentgrass, I generally prefer to choose a blend instead of a single cultivar, because I remember the problem of C-15 decline in the midwest twenty years ago.  We used the "Dominant" blend on courses in Virginia and Arizona a few years ago, both in tough climates [one hot and humid, the other hot and dry], and neither of which had a big maintenance budget, and both superintendents swore by it. 

I've used A-4 three or four times now and I don't have a bad thing to say about the grass itself ... well, actually one thing, it doesn't recover from ball marks very well at all, but it's a great putting surface.  However, I don't like to use it because I know the superintendent is going to push the greens to 13 on the Stimpmeter, and I would prefer that was impossible.  But I would probably use A-4 if I the super reported directly to me.

By the same token, I'd use one of the new Bermudas if I was in Georgia or Florida.  People are always trying to push bentgrass further south, but after 2-3 years they get into a cycle of overwatering and even if the greens putt well, they're mushy for approach shots.  I played on Mini Verde greens for the first time at Indian Creek in Florida three weeks ago, and the greens were almost too fast, so I can't imagine anyone used to bentgrass complaining about it. 

And I haven't putted on our new paspalum greens in Mexico yet, so I have no opinion of that grass until I do.

Mark Luckhardt

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 10:21:39 AM »
Some clients of mine are experimenting with Zoysia on greens in environments where tree removal isn't an option on traditional bermuda surfaces in the Carolinas. Apparently, it has been in use in Japan for a number of years, but I would understand the thatch issues long term with this variety. The newer Zoysia varieties are outstanding on tees/fairways.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 10:25:45 AM »
Mark:

I have putted on zoysia greens [they call it korai] on several courses in Japan.

You wouldn't choose it unless you had to.  It's tough as nails, but I have never seen anyplace where it rolled true and reasonably quick.  They only used it in the old days because the humidity was so intense in summer, and their knowledge of agronomy and the resources available to them were so slim, that it was the only grass they were sure they wouldn't lose.

There are no bermuda greens in Japan at all.  I still haven't figured out why ... I assume they must have an embargo against foreign species.

Mark Luckhardt

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 10:42:45 AM »
Tom,

Yes, that makes sense on the grass toughness front. This club was a busy public course with a high number of rounds, and the condition of the bermuda, plus the sunlight issues that couldn't be addressed, led them to believe they needed some toughness beyond what the bermuda was doing for them.      Probably not the kind of conditions for a country club in the same area.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 10:49:37 AM »
I believe Doug Petersen at Austin GC has a few zoysia greens in the practice area or par 3 course? I haven't seen them but a couple of grass snobs I know have and they liked 'em.

Steve Curry

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 10:56:16 AM »
Tom,

What fescue have you used and was it only on sandy base?

Don,
"Grass Snobs", I like that.

Thanks,
Steve

Kyle Harris

Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 10:56:31 AM »
Poa is the best, we see it at all the top courses managed to perfection, it has it flaws (drought stress, anthracnose), but bentgrass is a killer to manage, it is susceptible to more diseases than poa, when it done correctly nothing rolls better. California with the nematode problem, is the only place outside of hot weather climates I believe it shouldn't be. Fewer people know it but Poa grows denser than bent with higher seedhead production compared to bents stoloniferious method of spreading. Also, remember this bentgrass is native to scotland (other than bred cultivars) poa is native to here, we are trying to grow something on our golf course that is not really "suppose" to be there so natural issues are going to come about. It is recommended that you cut bentgrass even creeping no lower than .125 or 1/8, whereas Poa as Oakmont only limitation is scalping the crown. I been part of a club that managed the poa correctly and rolled with heavy salsco rollers to get rid fo the "bumpy" feel and I believe we achieved it quite nicely.

Poa is native to North America?

News to me...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 11:03:10 AM »
Tom,

What fescue have you used and was it only on sandy base?


Thanks,
Steve

Steve:

I'm embarrassed to tell you I don't know which fescue we just used in Bandon.  I'll have to ask Ken Nice and get back to you.  When we planted High Pointe twenty years ago, Jamestown was the only variety that would tolerate putting green heights of cut, but there may be others now.

And yes, I've only planted fescue on native sand or sandy loam greens.

Steve Curry

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 05:45:29 PM »
Hi Tom,

Is it slow when wet and how low do they cut it?

Thanks,
Steve

Troy Alderson

Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 12:04:46 PM »
Hi Tom,

Is it slow when wet and how low do they cut it?

Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,

I remember Ken Nice telling me they keep the fescue at about 0.250 inches on the greens, maybe down to 0.200 inches.  Slow when wet?  I don't know.

Troy

Tom_Doak

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 01:48:05 PM »
Steve:

Don't know the specifics of height of cut.  As Troy suggests, it's much higher than most other grasses, and yet the greens at Pacific Dunes can often be quite fast when they dry out.

Where's Tom Jefferson when I need him?

[He's probably enjoying watching me look like a dummy before he comes in and explains it all. ;)

Troy Alderson

Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 02:27:36 PM »
I was about to reply to Tom on the Vesper thread with this question, What is your prefered green turf?

Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,

Sounds like the $10,000 question.  My answer is anything but Poa annua.  Poa reptans is a good choice but will probably turn to Poa annua within a few years.  As Tom says, fescues are great if you have the well draining soil for it.  But you know what to do for your area.  Just find the turf that will save the club money in the long term.

Troy

Tom Jefferson

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 10:00:17 AM »
Tom;

The current seed mixture for Old Macdonald (and all the other turf areas here) is as follows: Bridgeport II Chewings fescue, 35%; Barswing Chewings fescue, 25%;  Barcrown Creeping Red fescue, 20%; (and seed coating 20%).  That mixture has changed slightly (I believe) since the first season's seeding, but I couldn' t say exactly how.

The seed mixtures have evolved since the initial seeding of Bandon Dunes, then Pac, Trails, and now Old Mac, chiefly by the reduction in % by weight of the colonial bent component, culminating in the absence of bent in the current mix.

If I sound like I know what I am talking about, it is only because Eric Johnson and I just went out and got a current seed tag from the seed room!  Of course Eric (or Ken Nice) COULD have chimed in and helped you out of your little predicament!  It was left to me to be the messenger here!

As to the mowing height, they range from approx. 0.240 down to 0.200, with mowing alternating with rolling on a daily basis.  At those heights of cut, and in the windy conditions, the stimpmeter readings are around 8.5 to 10.0.  The turf is rarely 'wet'......fast and firm conditions predominate nearly every day here.


Hope this helps,
Tom
the pres

Tom_Doak

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 10:06:06 AM »
Tom J:

Thanks for bailing me out with the facts.  Say hello to Ken and Eric and Jeff for me; you guys rock.

One other question:  I know many guys here are going to be floored to hear that you can cut greens at .200 and still have some speed on them.  Does the cutting height translate 1-for-1 with what we hear for bentgrass cutting heights, or is there a reason the numbers don't compare well?  I know a lot of your speed issues are achieved with topdressing and with rolling, but does that change the effective height of cut?

The really wild part is that the fairways probably stimp at 6 or 7 and they're cut even higher.

Tim Nugent

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 01:15:11 PM »
Tom D, these are native sand greens - right?  Good question on the height vs speed.  I sure many a re floored because most lay people don't realize that different grass types have different blade widths (and shapes)  Velvet bent is 40% thinner than creeping bent (A1-A4) and Fescues have round blades vs flat/wide ones. And speed is directly related to friction.  How many golfers playing on fescue greens probably are thinking "boy, these look like they could use some fertilizer"? 
Coasting is a downhill process

Jud_T

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 01:22:35 PM »
Dumb question from the peanut gallery:

Is this currently the only 100% fescue course in the states?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:36:15 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 02:05:01 PM »
Jud:

Nothing is 100% fescue -- I'm sure Old Macdonald already has a couple of blades of poa annua out there somewhere.

However, it may well be the only course in America seeded with 100% fescue, or since the 1920's, anyway.  All of the other courses I know of that have planted fescue have planted some Colonial bent in the mix as well, except for High Pointe, which of course is now closed.

Jud_T

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Re: Green turf... Grass tangent in Vesper ?Tom Doak
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 02:16:47 PM »
Tom,

Thanx! VERY interesting....Bummer about High Pointe.  May have to sneak out there just to walk around when I'm up there this summer....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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