Why SHOULDN'T we (kinda) know where the pin is???

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,

You must not realize, I live in Philadelphia, PA USA. We have no blind shots on this side...I'd just like them to still be around if I get back to your side...

Been playing the forward tees on the 4th at your home club, I see.  

..and 6th, 8th, 21st...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't see any inherent conflict between using judgment and having some information as to where the flag is.  I'm not asking to be told where the flag is when it's visible and I'm happy for the architect to deceive me with some optical illusion.  

But when the shot is blind what is the problem with being told that the pin is front, middle or back?

The problem is:

The architect didn't want you to know.
That's why he made the shot blind.
Can you grasp that concept ?

Tim, don't worry about the quality of your argument - you seem to be winning this particular fight, Pat Mucci tends to get more personal when he's fighting a losing corner.


How would you know, you've never won an argument.

If you think I'm losing this debate, you need more help than Tim.

In the photo of the hole being discussed, the par 3, 14th hole at Hidden Creek, tell us why Tim is entitled to more information than is presented by the naked eye, the scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee.

[Tim Gavrich]

Pat--

Could you please tell me how far onto the 51 yard (!) deep green in that picture the pin is located?  Based on your claims and confidence of Platonic "Right Opinion" earlier, that should be no problem...

My guess is front third, for what it's worth (not much, evidently).

[Bill_McBride]

Pat--

Could you please tell me how far onto the 51 yard (!) deep green in that picture the pin is located?  Based on your claims and confidence of Platonic "Right Opinion" earlier, that should be no problem...

My guess is front third, for what it's worth (not much, evidently).

Tim, remember "Caddyshack" - Be the ball, Danny!

[Kyle Harris]

Pat--

Could you please tell me how far onto the 51 yard (!) deep green in that picture the pin is located?  Based on your claims and confidence of Platonic "Right Opinion" earlier, that should be no problem...

My guess is front third, for what it's worth (not much, evidently).

Tim,

I'd be impressed if you could ascertain that from a two dimensional picture, myself.

Frankly, I think you'd have trouble with most pictures on golf greens, blind or not.

[Glenn Spencer]

That pin looks about 60% back to me.

[JESII]

Would it effect your guess on where that pin is if I told you the right bunker there is 20 yards short of the front of the green?

[Tim Gavrich]

Pat--

Could you please tell me how far onto the 51 yard (!) deep green in that picture the pin is located?  Based on your claims and confidence of Platonic "Right Opinion" earlier, that should be no problem...

My guess is front third, for what it's worth (not much, evidently).

Tim,

I'd be impressed if you could ascertain that from a two dimensional picture, myself.

Frankly, I think you'd have trouble with most pictures on golf greens, blind or not.

Kyle--

I completely agree with you; I haven't the foggiest idea where that pin is.  My remark, in hindsight, was a bit silly, but tongue-in-cheek.

[Tim Gavrich]

On a more serious note, I am willing to learn.

How would I go about ascertaining the hole location when confronted with this general situation?  Or is it an innate skill?

[Pete Lavallee]

That's a good question Tim. The long thin 10th green at Rustic Canyon can clearly be seen, but I am unable to figure the exact distance of the pin from a given spot on this 50 yard long green. I suspect that in this instance only local knowledge, aquired from playing this hole repeated times, would sharpen your guess work skills there.

[Eric_Terhorst]

How would I go about ascertaining the hole location when confronted with this general situation?  Or is it an innate skill?

Tim,
You can't "ascertain" unless you set the hole location yourself or walk the course and pace it off before your round.  

It's not an innate skill, but as a 1 handicap player, you've seen and conquered many 200 yard approach shots, and you've learned.  Estimate whether this one looks shorter or longer, then do that trusting thing you do, then swing.  Then as you walk up to the green, you think, Whatever the outcome, it's a beautiful day and a beautiful course, and a pretty yellow flag, and I'm playing golf.

[Darren_Kilfara]

For what it's worth, the 7th hole at Machrihanish is a long par 4 over a huge dune (around 100 yards short of the green) to a completely blind, and quite large, green. In the last few years, the club has erected a piece of whiteboard adjacent to the tee; the whiteboard has a circle on it which is divided into quadrants, and every time the hole location is changed, it is reflected by a newly inked "X" on the whiteboard. In this manner, what was formerly a completely blind shot with no strategy now is still a completely blind shot, but it is now one you can play intelligently - if you're familiar with the aiming markers and where the green is beyond the high ridge, you can hope to play a precise shot to the correct location, and even if you're not thusly familiar, you can still favor one side of the green to the other (and also one side of the fairway or the other, from the tee) and try to leave an intelligent miss. THAT is the amount of information I'd ideally like on every blind or semi-blind hole - not a precise yardage, but rather a general idea - and I think that's all Tim is asking for as well.

Cheers,
Darren

Darren,
Isn't that there for the tourists?
Aren't Front, Middle, Back flags there for visitors and tourists?
A members course needs none of it.

That is a quite ridiculous notion to me. Are you suggesting that members don't benefit from such information on a blind hole? The advantage members and other experienced players have on a blind hole is that they know much more precisely where the green is situated; that advantage is largely dulled when you don't know where the hole is located. NOBODY I've ever talked to at Machrihanish thinks the whiteboard is a bad idea...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--

Could you please tell me how far onto the 51 yard (!) deep green in that picture the pin is located?  Based on your claims and confidence of Platonic "Right Opinion" earlier, that should be no problem...

The pin appears to be on the far right side of the green, on the upper tier fairly close to the bunker.  That side of the green is shallower than the left side, so a shot of 190 favoring a center line with a fade should put me within birdie range.

An observant golfer can gleen more info in person.

My guess is front third, for what it's worth (not much, evidently).

I can't see you being too far off if you play it to that distance.

But, what if you were ?

Shouldn't the architect provide a situation where a long approach putt confronts the golfer ?

If you hit to the center of the green, what's the longest putt you'll have ?  60 feet ?  Does that overwhelm you ?
Is it unreasonable for an architect to TEST your skills, the skills of a 0 to 1 handicap by requiring an occassion long approach putt ?

[Mark Pearce]

I don't see any inherent conflict between using judgment and having some information as to where the flag is.  I'm not asking to be told where the flag is when it's visible and I'm happy for the architect to deceive me with some optical illusion.  

But when the shot is blind what is the problem with being told that the pin is front, middle or back?

The problem is:

The architect didn't want you to know.
That's why he made the shot blind.
Can you grasp that concept ?
I feel I've finally arrived on this Discussion Group now I've had Pat Mucci reply to one of my posts in BOLD TYPE Do you think that the majority of blind shots are blind because the architect wanted the golfer not to see the target?  Aren't at least some blind because the only answer to a routing problem involved going over higher land and they couldn't move the earth?  Isn't the challenge making yourself hit a shot on trust?  Isn't that problem still there even if you know the pin is, say, in the front third?  Or can't you grasp that concept?

Tim, don't worry about the quality of your argument - you seem to be winning this particular fight, Pat Mucci tends to get more personal when he's fighting a losing corner.


How would you know, you've never won an argument.
I won one with my ten year old son this afternoon.  I can't have ever won one with you because I'm sure you've never lost one.

If you think I'm losing this debate, you need more help than Tim. So I was right.

In the photo of the hole being discussed, the par 3, 14th hole at Hidden Creek, tell us why Tim is entitled to more information than is presented by the naked eye, the scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee.
Ah!  The favourite Mucci trick of taking statements out of context!  You appear to have grasped above that I was talking about blind holes and now ask me to comment on a hole which, I think, we're all agreed isn't blind.  Frankly, I don't think he does need more information, since, as you have eloquently explained elsewhere, he has all the information needed to judge where the flag is, roughly.

[Cassandra Burns]

Hi, I'm Cassie, and this is my first post here.  What a wonderful site, and what a wonderful thread!

I was thinking about Tim's setup - the tricky 14th at Hidden Creek, and how difficult it is to judge the placement of the pin - and what I'd do in his situation.  Mind you, I'm not a 1 handicap (9 more like), but I can handle myself around the course.  Looking at the hole and the description, I can already think of three different strategies I'd consider.

First, though, I think what's great about this hole is that it actively promotes different strategies, which can be especially unsettling for the scratch player who's used to shooting for every pin in the quest for birdie.  Where the architect really gets you, I think, isn't the blindness of the hole so much as the expectation that it suggests by being labelled a par 3.  How unnerving for the birdie shooter, that you don't know exactly where the pin is!  I love it.

Yes, it's a par 3, but it's a blind and tricky par 3, and long to boot for those of us not used to booming every shot.  In this case, par is a good score!  Who's going to get birdie here?  Only the lucky, and in my experience luck balances out over time.  So I'm not going to worry about possibly losing a hole to birdie.  Rather, let's consider - in what ways can we get a 3 here?  

First, we already know the distance to the front and back of the green, and presumably the center.  The first strategy is to just go for the center, leaving no more than a seventy foot putt.  Me, I wouldn't choose that, since I rarely if ever practice seventy foot putts.  Likewise for Tim, whose putting is his weakness, another strategy is in order.

Well, what about laying up?   Me, I like my chipping game, so getting to the front of the green gives me a great up and down opportunity.  I'd rather chip or pitch from fifty yards than putt from thirty.

Finally, per the description, I don't have to worry about bunkers left.  Depending on what the ground is like on that side, I could also play left for a short pitch-and-putt par.

All three strategies can reward a good player!  In this case, the hole challenges the short game, not the power shot.  What a refreshing change!  Over time, the player who has great putting or short game skills is rewarded.  

Tim, I think in this case some more creative thinking is called for, starting with reframing what you want to get out of the hole.  Rather than lamenting the lack of a good yardage for birdie, look for all the different ways you can fashion together a very fair 3, and work on that short game.

Yours,
Cassie

[John Shimp]

I have never heard of the word "ginky" before, although I understand the types of shots P. Mucci is describing.  So I looked it up on google.  Here is the only definition I could find.
Its from the Urban Dictionary which is pretty entertaining.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ginky

[Cassandra Burns]

Better yet, land a low running shot that will roll through the first 30 or 40 yards of the green, and aim at the pin.  That gives you the best chance for an ace, or at least hitting the flagstick for the good birdie opportunity.  And start practicing those long putts!

[Michael Moore]

Malcolm Gladwell has a very nice article entitled Open Secrets in the latest New Yorker that addresses this question. The article talks about the difference between a puzzle and a mystery.

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/070108fa_fact

"If things go wrong with a puzzle, identifying the culprit is easy: it’s the person who withheld information. Mysteries, though, are a lot murkier: sometimes the information we’ve been given is inadequate, and sometimes we aren’t very smart about making sense of what we’ve been given, and sometimes the question itself cannot be answered. Puzzles come to satisfying conclusions. Mysteries often don’t."

"Puzzles are 'transmitter-dependent'; they turn on what we are told. Mysteries are 'receiver dependent'; they turn on the skills of the listener, and Macey argues that, as Enron’s business practices grew more com-plicated, it was Wall Street’s responsibility to keep pace."

"Mysteries require that we revisit our list of culprits and be willing to spread the blame a little more broadly. Because if you can’t find the truth in a mystery—even a mystery shrouded in propaganda—it’s not just the fault of the propagandist. It’s your fault as well."

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't see any inherent conflict between using judgment and having some information as to where the flag is.  I'm not asking to be told where the flag is when it's visible and I'm happy for the architect to deceive me with some optical illusion.  

But when the shot is blind what is the problem with being told that the pin is front, middle or back?

The problem is:

The architect didn't want you to know.
That's why he made the shot blind.
Can you grasp that concept ?

Do you think that the majority of blind shots are blind because the architect wanted the golfer not to see the target?

YES[/color]


Aren't at least some blind because the only answer to a routing problem involved going over higher land and they couldn't move the earth?  [/b]

That would be rare[/color]

Isn't the challenge making yourself hit a shot on trust?  


I think the challenge is trusting the line since most distances are known.[/color]


Isn't that problem still there even if you know the pin is, say, in the front third?

Not really, because in most instances, the distance to the center of the green is known.[/color]

Or can't you grasp that concept?

I grasp the concept, it's its validity that I deny[/color]

Tim, don't worry about the quality of your argument - you seem to be winning this particular fight, Pat Mucci tends to get more personal when he's fighting a losing corner.


How would you know, you've never won an argument.
I won one with my ten year old son this afternoon.  I can't have ever won one with you because I'm sure you've never lost one.

If you think I'm losing this debate, you need more help than Tim. So I was right.

In the photo of the hole being discussed, the par 3, 14th hole at Hidden Creek, tell us why Tim is entitled to more information than is presented by the naked eye, the scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee.

Ah!  The favourite Mucci trick of taking statements out of context!  You appear to have grasped above that I was talking about blind holes and now ask me to comment on a hole which, I think, we're all agreed isn't blind.  


But, this was the hole presented in the discussion, or did you miss that ?[/color]


Frankly, I don't think he does need more information, since, as you have eloquently explained elsewhere, he has all the information needed to judge where the flag is, roughly.


Agreed[/color]

[Mark Pearce]

I don't see any inherent conflict between using judgment and having some information as to where the flag is.  I'm not asking to be told where the flag is when it's visible and I'm happy for the architect to deceive me with some optical illusion.  

But when the shot is blind what is the problem with being told that the pin is front, middle or back?

The problem is:

The architect didn't want you to know.
That's why he made the shot blind.
Can you grasp that concept ?

Do you think that the majority of blind shots are blind because the architect wanted the golfer not to see the target?

YES[/color]


Aren't at least some blind because the only answer to a routing problem involved going over higher land and they couldn't move the earth?  [/b]

That would be rare[/color]

Isn't the challenge making yourself hit a shot on trust?  


I think the challenge is trusting the line since most distances are known.[/color]
You have to trust the line and the distance both of which you have no visual comfort for.  Your whole point has been that architects should be able to deceive as to distance which involves the fact that players need to trust distance. Surely there's no greater test of this than a blind shot.  The whole point is that distance is not known.  Tim is arguing that it should be.  Now you're saying that it is already?[/b][/i]


Isn't that problem still there even if you know the pin is, say, in the front third?

Not really, because in most instances, the distance to the center of the green is known.[/color]

Or can't you grasp that concept?

I grasp the concept, it's its validity that I deny[/color]

Tim, don't worry about the quality of your argument - you seem to be winning this particular fight, Pat Mucci tends to get more personal when he's fighting a losing corner.


How would you know, you've never won an argument.
I won one with my ten year old son this afternoon.  I can't have ever won one with you because I'm sure you've never lost one.

If you think I'm losing this debate, you need more help than Tim. So I was right.

In the photo of the hole being discussed, the par 3, 14th hole at Hidden Creek, tell us why Tim is entitled to more information than is presented by the naked eye, the scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee.

Ah!  The favourite Mucci trick of taking statements out of context!  You appear to have grasped above that I was talking about blind holes and now ask me to comment on a hole which, I think, we're all agreed isn't blind.  


But, this was the hole presented in the discussion, or did you miss that ?[/color]
The thread was started in relation to blind holes.  The fact that a hole that is not blind was cited as an example was not of my doing.  I'd rather have the original, more interesting debate.[/b][/i]

Frankly, I don't think he does need more information, since, as you have eloquently explained elsewhere, he has all the information needed to judge where the flag is, roughly.


Agreed[/color]

[Darren_Kilfara]

I thought I saw a rainbow once
Alas, 'tis but that I'm a dunce
I should have known from what I'd read
'Twas but a GolfClubAtlas thread.

[JESII]

You have to figure out a way to plug Pat in there because he is the rainbow man...