If you could add one bunker somewhere...

[Philippe Binette]

Ok here's the deal,
if you could add one bunker to one course, any course in the world

where would it be, which location on which course and why!!!!

[Ian Dalzell]

#18 at St. Andrews, somewhere down the left side to make the players take a straighter approach to the green, thus bringing the OB more into play.  It would have to be big enough to make a player think, because right now they can just bail left, then come into the green from there.  It would look out of place, for sure, but could change the way the hole is played - it would have an impact.

[Mark_Fine]

Philippe,
This is the kind of question that club members/committees ask themselves all the time and one of the prime reasons restoration is a busy business today - to fix all the "improvements"  
Mark

[Philippe Binette]

Mark,

then maybe the question could be: if you could take out a bunker somewhere, which one would it be.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Surely you have advised adding a bunker on your projects.  Which of these do you think makes the greatest improvement and why?

Although not a professional, I like the bunker I proposed for Rolling Green's 7th.

[Bill_McBride]

I would add a central fairway bunker (like #4 Woking) to the first hole at Tokatee in Oregon.  That is such an insipid opener - maybe 330 yds with nothing in your way, flat, straight - that the course would be dramatically improved in one fell swoop.

[John Kirk]

I'd add a huge carry bunker about 200 yards out on the first hole at Merion, right in the middle of the fairway.

Happy New Year to everyone, especially you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

#18 at St. Andrews, somewhere down the left side to make the players take a straighter approach to the green, thus bringing the OB more into play.  It would have to be big enough to make a player think, because right now they can just bail left, then come into the green from there.  It would look out of place, for sure, but could change the way the hole is played - it would have an impact.

Ian, This is surely blasphemy! Rich Goodale might be able to answer this, but there may have been bunker(s) seperating the two fairways at one time. At least I seem to remember have read this somewhere...Of course then again, it could be the pre-stages of Alzheimers.

[Bill_McBride]

#18 at St. Andrews, somewhere down the left side to make the players take a straighter approach to the green, thus bringing the OB more into play.  It would have to be big enough to make a player think, because right now they can just bail left, then come into the green from there.  It would look out of place, for sure, but could change the way the hole is played - it would have an impact.

Ian, This is surely blasphemy! Rich Goodale might be able to answer this, but there may have been bunker(s) seperating the two fairways at one time. At least I seem to remember have read this somewhere...Of course then again, it could be the pre-stages of Alzheimers.

Don't get Shivas started on this again, please.  

[Sean Leary]

A centerline bunker on the 3 shot par 5 11th hole of my home course, about 120 yards from the green. Worst hole on the course with brainless tee and second shots. A bunker would make you think about where to hit your second shot.

Serious question. Has Fazio EVER done a centerline bunker?

[John Kirk]

OK, a serious answer.

Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow #6 is a 440 yard, dogleg left, par 4, slightly downhill.  This hole was featured in a recent book honoring the 500 greatest golf holes.  A little creek crosses the fairway about 130 from the green, and runs down the left side of the fairway into a little pond fronting the left side of the green.

#6 has a great green, a Redan style with a steep falloff to the back left.  It's the most severe green on the course.

I'd eliminate the pond and creek, and replace the pond with a deep fronting bunker, maybe 8-10 feet below the green.  Let players try to get up and down from an imposing sand hazard, rather than drop behind the lake and take a penalty stroke.

[Sean Leary]

John K,

I really like that hole the way it is. One of my favorites at Pumpkin. I'm surprised you would want to change it

How about taking out the wetlands on 18 and making it a penal Hells Half acre sort of bunker?  ( I know this can't happen due to the environmental stuff, but it would make that hole a lot better,imo)

PS. Hope you are heading down to the desert soon with this crap weather we have had.

[Rick Shefchik]

I'll avoid the "bunker on 18 at St. Andrews" this time around, since I think we pretty much beat it into a coma the last time. And, that hole aside, I'm inclined to agree with Mark Fine that adding bunkers to existing holes is generally a source of mischief rather than improvement.

So I'll suggest the removal of a bunker: the bunker within the 6th green at Riviera. I know we've talked about this one a lot, too, but I dislike it as a design feature as long as the club refuses to allow players to hit wedges from the putting service, except in championship play. As a club member, I'd feel screwed by that situation.

[Matthew Hunt]

#18 at St. Andrews, somewhere down the left side to make the players take a straighter approach to the green, thus bringing the OB more into play.  It would have to be big enough to make a player think, because right now they can just bail left, then come into the green from there.  It would look out of place, for sure, but could change the way the hole is played - it would have an impact.

Ian, This is surely blasphemy! Rich Goodale might be able to answer this, but there may have been bunker(s) seperating the two fairways at one time. At least I seem to remember have read this somewhere...Of course then again, it could be the pre-stages of Alzheimers.

They had bunkers down thhe middle for many years but they were filled in during WWI

[Ian Dalzell]

I knew I should have been an architect

[Jim Nugent]

Matthew, are you 100% sure you are right?  What is your source?  

[Matthew Hunt]

I read it in a book. I dont know which one but I will try and find my sourse.

Also I saw it in passing here on GCA a couple of weeks ago.

Saying this I dont know if my sourses are correct so i'm not 100% sure.

[ForkaB]

#18 at St. Andrews, somewhere down the left side to make the players take a straighter approach to the green, thus bringing the OB more into play.  It would have to be big enough to make a player think, because right now they can just bail left, then come into the green from there.  It would look out of place, for sure, but could change the way the hole is played - it would have an impact.

Ian, This is surely blasphemy! Rich Goodale might be able to answer this, but there may have been bunker(s) seperating the two fairways at one time. At least I seem to remember have read this somewhere...Of course then again, it could be the pre-stages of Alzheimers.

I vaguely remember hearing that, Tommy, but I think it was from Tom MacWood, and as he has disappeared himself, I discount that reference almost entirely..........

If they were there, they were not there for a long time.

Ian, I agree with you conceptually, but only if they also move the Valley of Sin towards the right hand corner.  Now that would be a GREAT golf hole!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
 The three weeks I was there in St. Andrews, staying in St. Andrews, I rearely ever saw the pin play in the front right, let alone entire right. (maybe once or twice) I found playing the right side of the 18th to be pretty much a dangerous proposition in regars to pushing a shot O,B, which I did twice there, thnking I could come in from the right while trying to play the hole differently on seperate occasions, and this to the normal pin. (thinking I would have an interesting putt that most don't ever experience or see)

Certainly the depression front center of the green on #13 would be a similar concept of what you talk about for the 18th couldn't it? Only it isn't a drivable hole.

Thoughts?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
If the intent is to restore something then I shy away in most cases.  It can lead to trouble and once someone changes one thing, the next thing you know, nothing is sacred and you end up with a new design.  On renovations, that is another story.  

Rich,
Leave the bunker on #6 at Riv.  It would be an ordinary golf hole without it.  You are not concerned with "fairness" are you?  If you are worried about not being about to chip on the green, don't hit it over there    

Mark

[Rick Shefchik]

Mark --

Regarding the bunker on the 6th green at Riviera, I agree it's a cool feature, and no one would talk about the hole without it, but does it then follow that other ordinary holes would be improved with a bunker in the middle of the green?

As for fairness, I'd be fine with the difficulty of the hole if I were allowed to use whatever shot I thought was needed to extricate myself from the predicament I put myself in.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

The question posed was where would you add a bunker if you could.  Nothing was said about restorations.  It is obvious that adding a bunker where there wasn't one is not a restoration.  

If you care to consider a two part question, what restored bunker have you called for that would yield the most improvement in your view and also what, if any new bunker you designed would benefit a hole the most?  

[Adrian_Stiff]

There were never central bunkers on the 18th at St Andrews old as such but there was a bunker called Halketts bunker it was for the 1st and so did not really come into play for 18. This bunker would have been eliminated around 1870. The original 1st hole played from the present tee to the 17th green. Tom built the current 1st green on land reclaimed, and came the righthand routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philippe,
This is the kind of question that club members/committees ask themselves all the time and one of the prime reasons restoration is a busy business today - to fix all the "improvements"  
Mark

Mark,

My guess is, that when the day is done, as a "restorationist", you will have recreated more bunkers then you will have removed.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Maybe you will be right  

Wayne,
The center fairway bunker on hole #5 at Cherry Hills would be one of those restored bunkers that yields the most improvement to a hole.  Restored, it might be my favorite hole on the golf course.  Note:  The added framing bunkers on the left will be removed.  Play will be short of, around the left or the right, or over the restored center bunker.  



As for renovation work, it could be the shared greenside bunker complex we designed for holes #8 and #15 at Arcola CC.  The bunker fits the hole perfectly and is a tribute to the shared greenside bunker complex that once existed on the original #12 and #18 holes (it was lost when the routing was changed and the parkway went through part of the golf course).  

Rick,
Forrest and I did a write up about the bunker on #6 at Riv. in chapter 3 of our hazards book.  Without retyping the whole thing, you might want to check it out (hope you have a copy of the book).  
Mark