[paul westland]

January 4th. Our Summer foursome played an enjoyable round in Eastfield Massachusetts, not far west of the Orchards @ Holyoke.  East Mountain Country Club is a very public 18 hole course, around 6000 yards.  Their greens are overseeded Velvet Bent. First time I"ve experienced this mosslike putting surface; certainly finest putting exercise ever in winter conditions.  Is this seed in use anywhere else to mention?  
Cheers!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

What do you mean by "overseeded" ?

A golf course I've been playing for more than a few years had german bent (velvet), but, it's all but been overrun by poa and other strains

The question I would ask is:

How aggressive is the newer velvet ?
Will it be dominant or succumb to other strains.

It makes for a spectacular putting surface.
But, can it be kept firm ?

And, how far south is the reasonable limit its use ?

[SPDB]

Pat - Are you referring to Belmont?

Velvet Bent was developed northeast of Holyoke at Vesper CC in Tyngsboro by its super Manny.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - Are you referring to Belmont?

No, but, I liked their greens when I first played them years ago.  I understand that they recently renovated the golf course including the regrassing of their greens.

Velvet Bent was developed northeast of Holyoke at Vesper CC in Tyngsboro by its super Manny.

That's not true.

German Bent (Velvet) existed in the early part of the 20th Century.  It  preceeded Francis's development of his particular strain of Velvet Bent, "Vespers", by at least 35-40 years

I was referencing a Tucker golf course.

Tucker came from a family that worked with grass.
He became a greenkeeper and an architect.  
He was considered to be a turfgrass expert and was using German Bent (Velvet) as early as 1927, if not earlier.

It's a terrific putting surface, but, is a cool weather grass, that's what made me curious about its southernmost use.

I was also wondering how fast & firm German Bent (Velvet) could get and how aggressive the new strain is, if it can outcompete other northern grasses, especially poa.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick and Paul,

I have had some limited experience of velvet bent. It has a very fine leaf and fits well into a sward with fescue. For the american market it also has a better colour than most fescues. It produces fine true, putting surface. It does has the draw back of not being as desease tolerant as fescue and is a prolific thatch builder.

As I say, my experience is limited and I am sure there are others on this site better qualified to comment on it.

[Tom_Doak]

The old German bent was not strictly Velvet.  It was a mixture of several different cultivars of creeping bent, plus a strain of Velvet bentgrass, which has still hung tough on a few courses in New England.

Pure Velvet bentgrass is a great surface -- all the old turfgrass books say it is THE best surface -- but it has been almost impossible for anyone to keep a pure Velvet surface in the long term.  I have not heard anything about the success of the couple of courses which have tried the new cultivar.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Duane Sharpe, at Blackhawk in Edmonton, tested some strain of new velvet (?) on one of the practice greens there, for one of the seed suppliers. I hope he sees this thread, and chimes in about his experience thus far.

I recall he thought it was the best putting surface at Blackhawk over the past few summers. Don't know how it's going to be over the long term though.

[Ian Andrew]

Both Eagle's Nest and Cobble Beach by Carrick Design are seeded to Velvet. It's also seeded into the upper putting green at Laval-sur-le-lac (for shade) and a series of tees at St. George's.

I'll give you the idiots perspective since I don't have a turf background to really understand what I have seen.

1. The grow in is painfully slow
2. repairs of damage take reseeding since there is no creep to fix anything "including ball marks"
3. the grass is initially inconsistant for speed - my idiots description would be it's "sticky" for the first few years

4. the greens play very firm once established and leave almost no ball marks at that point
5. the superintendent has only one or two guys to go to for opinions on this grass
6. after three years the mature grass finally begins to come into its own

[Duane Sharpe]

Ian
Those are pretty good "idiots perspectives!!"
Being in Supt. in Alberta, I will give you my so called "professional perspective" LOL
Our "Vesper Velvet" putting green was put in as a trial beside all my other Penn G-1 and A-4 Green surfaces. My experience so far with this grass is :

1. The seed is extremely small(so small, it is very tough to calibrate when seeding.)  I planted it at 3/4 lb per 1000sq ft and it came in very quickly and dense.

2. It experienced a high degree of disease during the establishment.(fusarium and yellow patch to name a few).

3. Once established, it is extremely DARK in color and dense.

4. I treat it the same as my A and G series grasses(in regards to water,verticutting and topdressing) and it does not seem to be overly aggressive or thatchy.(YET)

5.  Where the disease actually killed the turf, it still has not filled in completely due to the poor spreading ablility of this species.

6. It has consistently been the "greenest" turf every spring (after snow melt)and remains extremly green throughout the season even in drought conditions.

7. It responds well to spoon feeding of fertilizer and does not produce many clippings.

8. I have noticed that the ballmarks do remain for a longer period of time probably because of it's inability to spread.

9. It is my staff's favorite green to mow because "It is like a carpet"  Very consistent in texture, color and density.

The disease pressure has been low since grow-in and has not been a problem.  I will continue to monitor it's growth and consistency in the up coming years.  It is not suppose to grow well here in Alberta because of our high soil and water PH(8.0-8.5) but I have not notices any adverse effects as of yet because of the PH.
Just my few cents.
Sharpee

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