Are you really kidding yourselves ....

[Patrick_Mucci]

when you declare that the prefered way to play a Redan is on the ground ?

Let's use the 4th hole at NGLA for the discussion.

Isn't the "target" for the ground game:

Smaller than the green and shoulder.
Partially upsloped, which serves to stop a ball
Angled such that balls will be deflected left, right and long
Far, far removed from the left side of the putting surface
Dependent upon a draw, which is harder and harder to hit.
Greatly dependent upon the direction and velocity of the wind

Aren't the consequences for missing the "target" area greater than the consequences for missing a similarly sized target on the putting surface ?

At pseudo, or Mike Cirba Redan's, which play substantively down hill, aren't most of the above qualities or aids lost due to the trajectory of the approach shot ?

In theory, a Redan would appear to provide a great number of component pieces with respect to the approach, but, in reality, especially for the higher handicapped golfer, are these options impractical when you step up on the tee ?

[ForkaB]

yes

[JESII]

Yes, no question!

Although, my then 75 year old grandfather aced the 7th at Shinnecock with his driver...and I can tell you, he didn't fly it to the green.

Google "Redan" strategy and read some of the summaries of the fortress like landform that was the inspiration behind the 15th (and subsequesnt copies) at North Berwick gaining Redan as it's name. If it were an easy walk up the hill it might not have stuck in anyone's mind...

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

I view the Redan as by-gone "equalizer" concept, in the sense that an attractive option is provided for the player who cannot carry the ball as great a distance as his opponent, but is perhaps more crafty with the longer clubs.  In its heyday, I assume there was a tremendous gap between carrying the ball 200+ yards as opposed to say 180, much as they might be today from 240 to 260 yards.  

I am not aware of many redans where the fairway kick-plate drawfs the size of the green, but wonder if this would not be a superior design that is more true to the spirit of the architecture..

Mike

[Gene Greco]

    Patrick:


         With respect to the example you are using I will contradict the others by saying no.

The prevailing wind is always helping on #4 NGLA which makes the "target" area the ONLY place to land your ball to get it close to the the pin IF it is cut on the right portion of the green.

In addition, the green slopes DOWN and AWAY from but in line with this southwesterly wind. In effect, the acceleration from this slope and the helping wind will almost always leave your ball off the back left side if your ball has landed on the green.

The green is my target only if faced with a northerly wind or from the rarest - easterly direction.

        Gene

[Steve Burrows]

Bogey_Hendren,

What percentage of golfers do you imagine are, simultaneously, both incapable of carrying the ball longer distances with long irons, but also "crafty" with them?  They are still generally the most difficult clubs in the bag to hit, right?  I would imagine the number is quite low.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve B:  It's easier to be more "crafty" with longer irons because you can put more sidespin on the ball with the lower loft angle.

Gene:  Like the Redan at National, the 15th at North Berwick plays downwind with the prevailing west wind, so the bounce-in option often has to be considered.  Yet the wind does sometimes blow in the other direction ... I can remember hitting three-wood to the green at North Berwick, and a one-iron to the fourth at National the last time I played it.

One thing I have already decided about Old Macdonald is that, assuming we have a Redan hole, it will play north to south so that the ground game option has to be considered in the summer wind.  We have already built a pretty good Redan at Pacific Dunes, but that one had to be in the other direction, so it's not often you get the chance to play it out to the right.  On that hole I often hit driver or 3-wood, with a hint of cut accentuated by the prevailing wind which is slightly left to right.

[ForkaB]

For those who think that there is ever a preferred "bounce in" option on any "redan": (inclduing the orignial), I have one word:

spin

[Joe Bentham]

Tom-
Usually I have High handicappers aim left of the green with a wood and count on them hitting a slice.  Hopefully it lands somewhere short and right and we can putt the next one.  In the winter the bail out area is more of an option as the club that carries to the green generally won't hold for the same high handicapper.  

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:  When you come back to Bandon in five years and play my new hole with a 30-mph tailwind, you can use all the spin you want, but I doubt it will help much.

[JESII]

For those same people (the ones that might be able to carry onto and hold a Redan thanks to spin), where is a better miss?

My experiences with Redans is limited, and Shinnecock #7 is my favorite. Taking only that hole, I would much prefer to miss long. With this 30 mile per hour tailwind you speak of Tom, will players be able to chip onto the green from short if their attempt at using the approach area comes up short?

#7 at Shinnecock would send chips off the back due to the combination of slope and wind...does your idea of a Redan have as much back to front slope? Based 100% on your comments on here, the greens at Bandon will likely be slower than Shinnecock on atypical day. Assuming that holds, will that be the reason a player will be able to stop a chip with that tailwind that will not stop at SH? Is it typical of Redans to have firgiving rear sections?

[Joe Bentham]

Speaking of 17 at PacDunes only...a miss long and left isn't bad although you'll have a hard time getting it close because of the slope of the green.  Long and right is dead.  Short and left puts you in the bunker with a chance to get it close if you can hit a bunker shot.  By far and away the play is short and right.

[Kalen Braley]

A draw into the front of the green and have it filter down to the hole seems to be the most prudent way to play it, but there is plenty of fairway in front of it for the high handicapper.

When I played the redan at pac dunes, I accidently pulled my tee shot left with a 3 wood right into the cabbage about half way up the hill past the bunkers.  Luckily I had a good lie and a back left pin position so it was a simple up and down chip for par. It was a great rebound hole for me after taking a snowman on the 16th due to the massive collection area in front of the green.

Any plans on making that collection area less brutal Tom?  I hit my tee shot which I thought was far enough left but still ended up down in there.  At the bottom of that if the severity of the shot doesn't get you, the endless divots in there will!!

[Joe Bentham]

Kalen--
I'm not speaking for Tom, But you hit too mich club off the 16 tee.  Its a 200 yard shot at the second bunker on the left.  Its the best appoarch angle, flatist lie and a full shot in.  The spotty condition of the collection area is part of the penalty for being down there.

[Kalen Braley]

In retrospect, yes I would agree I hit too much club there 5 wood, downwind.  I'm not against the fact that it has a collection area in front of the green, it just seems it was overly large.  I noted where I hit my tee ball and where it ended up was a good 30 yards away to the right as that massive caldron catches everything. It just seemed the "watershed" area for lack of a better word was on the large side.

But perhaps if I had par'd it I would have walked off thinking yup that looks just about right!!  

[Joe Bentham]

If the collection area was smaller the hole would be totally different.  If you want to drive the green you can't run it up there.  did you have a caddie?

[Kalen Braley]

No caddie for me or in our group.  But lesson learned for sure!!  

[Tom_Doak]

JES:  The place to miss on a real Redan is long and left.  That's one of the neat things about the hole.  Not many people ever think of that as a strategy ... they are always trying to bounce it in short and right, and more often than not leaving themselves short with a downwind downhill chip.

I was amazed to play North Berwick's several times this summer and to see again just how gentle it is off the far left of the green ... but in four rounds of golf I never saw one player put their tee shot over there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I've always been amazed by the low number of golfers that  recognize the favorable nature of being long-left.

The recovery from that area is fairly easy, and when measured against other areas, it's highly preferable.

Many years ago a very good player told me that he likes to approach the green with a high fade, even though the carry was longer.  

When I first examined the area long-left at NGLA's Redan it appeared obvious that if you couldn't be on the green, long-left was THE favorable place to recover from.

The green slopes up to meet you, is fairly benign and the wind is usually in your face, ideal recovery factors.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, to me the joy of the Redan is that there isn't just one way to play it.  When I took my wife to North Berwick in 2005, we both parred the Redan, which was playing the usual downwind.  I hit the perfect six iron that landed just on the right front and ran down to 15' for a two putt par.

She took a different approach - due to her length limitation - and hit a solid spoon right of the Redan bunker and left of the other bunkers, running onto the green where it disappeared.  When we walked onto the green she was just inside me and also made par.

There are so many different plays.....I think the same is true of the Redan at NGLA.  If the only shot was to fly onto the green at a certain spot, the mystique of the Redan would be diminished, at least to me.

[JESII]

Tom Doak,

Would you agree then that the running approach is not really a viable option on a real redan? I ask this not in terms of the people that cannot fly the ball far enough, but rather those that have the option of flying it to the green or attempting a "chucked in grounder" as Sean Arble so cooly termed it.

I think green speed is an important consideration when combined with the slope and a tailwind. Do high green speeds reduce the options off the tee on a real redan?

[ForkaB]

Rich:  When you come back to Bandon in five years and play my new hole with a 30-mph tailwind, you can use all the spin you want, but I doubt it will help much.

Tom

In five years my spin will be more rhetorical than physical, but I will look forward to taking up the challenge!

[Kalen Braley]

JES:  The place to miss on a real Redan is long and left.  That's one of the neat things about the hole.  Not many people ever think of that as a strategy ... they are always trying to bounce it in short and right, and more often than not leaving themselves short with a downwind downhill chip.

I would have to agree here, this is how I played the 17th at pac dunes, on accident mind you, and it was a not too tough up and down for par.

[JESII]

Within these examples, does that also mean that sort right is possibly the worst place to miss?

At Shinnecock...the left bunker is not so bad...green high right is bad...and short is bad, short right is the worst.

At Shinnecock, I cannot fathom a circumstance in which I would intentionally land the ball 20 yards short of the green...I understand there are many without the option (ie: that's all they can fly the ball), for the rest is it ever a good option on any of the redan's out there?

[Phil Benedict]

JES:  The place to miss on a real Redan is long and left.  That's one of the neat things about the hole.  Not many people ever think of that as a strategy ... they are always trying to bounce it in short and right, and more often than not leaving themselves short with a downwind downhill chip.

I was amazed to play North Berwick's several times this summer and to see again just how gentle it is off the far left of the green ... but in four rounds of golf I never saw one player put their tee shot over there.

Do you go long/left by missing or is that where you aim, in which case it is not a miss?  I would guess the proper aiming point based on this strategy is the left side of the green, so that the miss to the right is on the green and the miss to the left is long/left where recovery is easy.