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Phil_the_Author

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2007, 11:11:47 AM »
Jes,

You asked, "would you be able to sculpt a masterpiece after a few hours conversation with Michelangelo?"

Yet that is exactly what some did at the very same time that Wilson and the Committee were creating Merion.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2007, 11:14:08 AM »
David,

I think what you said in each case makes a lot of sense.

The interesting thing about #1 is that we DO know, at least from a "time invested" standpoint about Macdonald and Whigham's input.   It sounds as though it was a total of one overnite stay by the Committee at NGLA (where I'm certain more time was spent discussing THAT golf course than the proposed one at Merion!), and one site visit prior to construction, and one after.   That's it.  

If anything I'd strongly suggest that CBM's contribution has been overrated, due largely to Wilson's very humble and gratuitous nature in publicly and hyperbolically (is that a word? ;)) telling everyone what a big help Charley and Whigham were!  

I think your #2 also makes sense, because there were some pretty considerable changes that took place to the course during those years up to the time of Hugh Wilson's death.

And finally #3 is absolutely rock-solid commonsense and anyone who has been in a multi-person project of any large scale knows the language of the project.   Wilson as the decisionmaker and mover and shaker all along was strongly supported as well by Behr's words, as well as Tillinghast's.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2007, 11:31:28 AM »
Jes,

You asked, "would you be able to sculpt a masterpiece after a few hours conversation with Michelangelo?"

Yet that is exactly what some did at the very same time that Wilson and the Committee were creating Merion.

True.

I guess the proper wording would have been, "would you feel pprepared to sculpt a masterpiece after a few hours with...?" This gets more to the context of the Wilson quote, don't you think?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2007, 11:55:36 AM »
Jes, to answer your question, "would you feel pprepared to sculpt a masterpiece after a few hours with...?"

My answer would be "No, I will sculpt a masterpiece because I know I can."

And that is what I believe Wilson would have said after reading what some of his contemporaries had to say about him. The same thing, and in an even stronger way, would have been said by his good friend's Tillinghast and Crump.

JESII

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #204 on: January 02, 2007, 12:05:58 PM »
Philip,

We have Wilson's quote in these threads..."If I had realized half of what I did not not know I would not have undertaken the task..."  "I" could likely be substituted by "we" as I cited this out of memory, but clearly a few years after beginning the process he was not filled with the confidence and eagerness of accomplishment you suggest.

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #205 on: January 02, 2007, 12:49:57 PM »
"1.  DaveM thinks CBM's contribution might be underestimated.  But he won't (and probably can't) say what CBM did that he hasn't been given credit for.  DaveM:  what did he do that he hasn't been given credit for?"

Shivas:

I'm sure you must realize by now that almost all of us have asked him that very question on here about twenty times. He just can't answer it. I doubt he even understands what the question means. The fact is not a single one of us has ever claimed that what was written by a number of people back then about M&W's "advice" or "involvement" needs be questioned. What it was is just not that hard to understand unless of course you are David Moriarty, I guess.

Basically about four days involvement at most. It doesn't take a rocket scientist in golf architecture to figure out what that meant with M&W.

If they had routed, designed of helped build the golf course rather than Wilson and his committee with the likes of Pickering and Flynn and Valentine there is no question at all that Merion and all those involved, including the Wilsons would have mentioned that fact.

The fact is they never did mention it and the reason they didn't is patently obvious to everyone other than David Moriarty. And obviously from what he said on here before he left the site, Tom MacWood too.

There's just no question about it, those two either have a very different agenda on here or they are really dense. I'd like to think it has to be the former and not the latter but one never knows with those two.

Half the time recently he seems to be saying he's just trying to carry on a discussion without having me insult him. I'm sure you've noticed that on any thread Moriarty has ever participated in on this website it doesn't take long for him to claim that those who questions the things he says are trying to attack him personally.

Unbelievable!   ;)

« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 12:59:08 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #206 on: January 02, 2007, 01:01:13 PM »
Shivas:

I'd like to not just see the dates of Colt's 1914 trip but where he was over here and what he was doing. Obviously some ship manifest has a limited use to most of our discusssions.

JESII

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #207 on: January 02, 2007, 01:03:48 PM »
IS there any sort of comprehensive summation of the changes made to Merion East from September 1912 through Wilson's death? The key to this question for me is the start date, as that will tell us how close the "novice" Wilson and his committee were in their intial product to the finished one.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #208 on: January 02, 2007, 01:42:47 PM »
Philip,

We have Wilson's quote in these threads..."If I had realized half of what I did not not know I would not have undertaken the task..."  "I" could likely be substituted by "we" as I cited this out of memory, but clearly a few years after beginning the process he was not filled with the confidence and eagerness of accomplishment you suggest.

Agreed, Jim, but you'll notice that at no point does he say, "Gee, what a ballbuster this project was/is.   I think we need to go back to Macdonald and Whigham and have them right our floundering ship!"  

I sense like most of these projects, there was probably a tremendous amount of trial and error, particularly around agronomy, drainage, bunkering patters, green design and playability, and probably some routing issues to resolve as well.

Probably if Macdonald knew exactly what he was getting into with NGLA he might have said the same thing a few years after the project started, particularly with the agronomic fiascos that occured, similar to Crump at PV.

JESII

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #209 on: January 02, 2007, 03:46:35 PM »
Mike,

I agree with all that you said there.

My point is exactly that, Wilson and committee intentionally avoiding relying heavilty on CBM's "expertise" because they had a job to do. It was a job they wanted to do. They wanted to do it themselves, and did so.

I have asked a couple of times in the last month or so if anyone thinks Tom Doak was 100% fully prepared for everything when he signed on for his first solo commission. Tom, we would certainly welcome your words here. Any of the professional architects reading this, tell me, how significant were the surprises that arose during your first project? Not a project in which you worked on, but the first one in which you were the lead architect. Would Wilson's words above fit if you were modest and self-depricating? Remember, he took on his task as an amateur, as a favor to the club, not in hopes of a livlihood.


Mike,

I am trying to go along with David here in his quest to lay out what happened up to September of 1912 when the course was opened in its original form.

The greatest leap of logic he is asking us to make, and I simply cannot make yet, is that Wilson waited until the course was completed before making his "pilgrimage". And even then he did so in a two or two-and-a-half month junket. Why would this happen when he had nine months "free" time between the land acquisition in 1910 and the ground breaking in Spring 1911? Are we to base all of that faith in a one-way ship manifest from France about an unconfirmed identity?

David,

Patrick asked you a great question a few posts ago...why is it (as you say) safe to assume Wilson would have taken the American Lines?

Considering Alan Wilson's line that "the very first priority was to send Hugh Wilson overseas to study...", why would we not assume he would get on the next one going that way? Do we have a date for the CBM/National visit?

RJ_Daley

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #210 on: January 02, 2007, 03:46:59 PM »

JESII:
Quote
IS there any sort of comprehensive summation of the changes made to Merion East from September 1912 through Wilson's death? The key to this question for me is the start date, as that will tell us how close the "novice" Wilson and his committee were in their intial product to the finished one.

Mike Cirba:
Quote
Agreed, Jim, but you'll notice that at no point does he say, "Gee, what a ballbuster this project was/is.  I think we need to go back to Macdonald and Whigham and have them right our floundering ship!"  

I sense like most of these projects, there was probably a tremendous amount of trial and error, particularly around agronomy, drainage, bunkering patters, green design and playability, and probably some routing issues to resolve as well.

Probably if Macdonald knew exactly what he was getting into with NGLA he might have said the same thing a few years after the project started, particularly with the agronomic fiascos that occured, similar to Crump at PV.

Gentlemen, that is the most meaningful exchange I have seen on this thread in a while.  

I have been pondering the concept that the course was staked out, grass seeded, and a rudimentary course was there, started in 1911 and by 1912-13, having some members out batting a ball around a mostly turfed or semi successful turfed field of play.  Then during that time came the possibly one trip HIW made to GB to study further, as C.B suggested after their excursion out to L.I. to ask CB his advise on issues they were already encountering in the early stages.  

I can see a scenario where all that learning they started obtaining from C.B. was sort of an afterthought upon realization that they were in over their heads on nuts and bolts construction and agronomy stuff.   I think that as skilled golfers, the committee and interested parties all knew for the most part what sort of par sequences and shot flights and approach demands they wanted.  They had a stream to contend with, and knew they had to route the course in a certain way to accomplish the sort of circuit of holes they wanted specific to that property.  But, they realised the nuts and bolts and bugaboos of construction had been overlooked.  All of a sudden, after early attempts to grow turf, they realized there were issues where the turf wouldn't take due to construction errors, etc.  There were problematic wet areas, or dry areas that wouldn't take seed.  Also, the placement and construction techniques of the bunkers (which appears to have been a multiple year evolution process from 1912-20s) was a matter of further study of proper construction of said bunkers in the site specific soil and terrain, and the strategic underlying philosophy of said bunker placements.  Then, also a study over the years of how the shots were actually playing with consideration to understanding over time what the prevailing winds might be expected in relation to tweaking those hazard placements.

Couldn't the trip to NGLA and the input on subsequent visits by CB and W, have been centered NOT ON THE PLAYING ASPECTS OF STRATEGY, BUT CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUE AND AGRONOMY, as Mike states above?  

If a committee turned loose on a property today were to route their committee consdidered ideal golf course, and start to seed grass without experts or previously experienced people who had done a successful course already, what would be the one word they might be told over and over?

DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE!!!

Could the original routing and future plans for bunker placement have needed the expert guidance that they sought from CB and a study trip of GB courses have been to study more elementary construction stuff they overlooked in their ideal routing without enough regard to things like drainage and surface water movement?

Maybe the "white faces of Merion" are more the result of a process after intitial grassing and routing efforts, whereby the technique to scoop and mound them needed guidance as to strategic placement, and more importantly construction technique to address drainage or prevention of run-off into them, etc.  Maybe this discussion needs a forensic bunker archeologist to determine if it is plausible that the course was first laid out, grassed, and even in play while the hazard tweaking went on for years, and that bunker construction effort was the great endeavor, that Wilson oversaw with constant invitations for input from Wilson to several experts of the day, including CB.  Afterall, what is the predominant feature that distiquishes Merion?  Did we not have a near riot on GCA several years ago where Hugh Puffy Wilson had to point out the controversy of modern constructors flying in the face of what was the heart and soul of the course, the bunkers and "the white faces of Merion" and not the "upholstered look" that was initially identified and left people mortified?

Ask yourselves how would you have approached the mission within context of the tools and knowledge at the time.  Wouldn't you want to get it routed and seeded and played in a field of a mostly turfed course with full intention to add the hazards and learn how to build them, over time?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #211 on: January 02, 2007, 03:51:56 PM »
Now that we have these ship manifest geniuses working can anyone tell me when George Crump traveled to GB in 1910 perhaps returning in late 1910 or early 1911? I have Ancestary.com but I thought I'd give David Moriarty or Tom MacWood the chance to come up with this information first so they can continue to feel like they're actually accomplishing something here.

RJ:

Yeah, we do have the step by step changes that happened and precisely when at Merion from the beginning on. But it seems to be David Moriarty (using some remark from Travis) who is saying that there was an "initial" stage that was considered to be a "Rough draft" by Merion that got seeded and put into play for a few years including the 1916 US Amateur.

Maybe David Moriarty would like to tell us just how and why the Merion construction from Spring 1911 to the fall seeding in Sept 1911 was considered to be a "rough draft" version of Merion East by Merion, Wilson and his committee. Let Moriarty tell us what the step by step changes were in detail and when. I've never seen anything from Merion that says the initial stage was originally intended by the club to be some "rough draft" version.

What I have seen in that vein, however, is the musings of Piper, Oakley, and Wilson years later explaining that if a club had the luxury of actually creating a course that way over a really extended period of time it was a good way to go. But then they added they realized at that point that most clubs didn't have that luxury for numerous reasons.

This seems to be something that occured to Wilson many years after the beginning. I've never seen anything from him saying this was the way they originally intended that it should be done or was going to be done.

To me this is just another good example of what someone like Wilson meant when he said 4-5 years later; "Looking back on the work, I feel certain that we would never have attempted to carry it out, if we had realized one half the things we did not know."

What he was saying, in my opinion, is back then they just didn't realize much of what they did not know and perhaps  that was the very reason they just did it anyway.

I guess he was implying that if they'd known in the very beginning more than one half of what they didn't know back then they may've really begged Macdonald and Whigam to just do it for them, or just gone out and hired some professional golf architect to do it for them rather than assigning Wilson and his Construction Committee to do it.

And who might that have been back then? Young Donald Ross perhaps who had not done a course in Pennsylvania, or perhaps Alex Findlay or Tom Benedelow for a couple of days on their way to their next site of eighteen stakes on a Sunday afternoon for $50?   ;)

If you ask me most of us are misreading this time and the ethos of Merion when they decided to get Wilson and a membership construction committee to do the course.

If you read again what Alan Wilson wrote about the beginning he said they got advice in the beginning from two men who were NOT golf architects, they were "sportsmen" only who'd both won US Amateurs. Of course he was referring to Macdonald and Whigam.

They then sent their little member committee up there to talk to those two about how four years previous Macdonald had put together a little group of three without that much architectural experience at the time--eg Travis, Whigam and himself and helped by other amateurs such as Emmet, Stillman, Knapp and Sabin about how they did it on their own without an architect.

I guess Merion (who actually knew Charley pretty well through at least the Lesley Cup) figured if Charley could do this as he did four years ago there was no reason why they couldn't too with Hugh Wilson and his little committee.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 04:34:54 PM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2007, 03:54:31 PM »
JESII, our posts crossed at the same time... ;) ;D

One thing you raise is why wait for a specific time to go over and study.  Well, was Wilson a completely independently wealthy man that could come and go from his business anytime he wished?  I assume he did have a life that demanded his time in other areas besides his work on Merion.  8)

I do wish an archie well versed in these forensic investigations of the bunker construction from long ago would comment on the relationship of when rudimentary courses were seeded, and when they may have started to fill in the hazards and placements after the fact of getting a field of play going.  And that it was perhaps more common place to get it up and running and address the details of digging the pits, and placing the mounding and getting the surface drainage right, later.  ( I suspect this).  
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 03:55:40 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JESII

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #213 on: January 02, 2007, 04:02:59 PM »
JESII, our posts crossed at the same time... ;) ;D

One thing you raise is why wait for a specific time to go over and study.  Well, was Wilson a completely independently wealthy man that could come and go from his business anytime he wished?  I assume he did have a life that demanded his time in other areas besides his work on Merion.  8)


RJ,

This is Philadelphia, come on...anytime one of our own is asked to travel overseas to study golf courses for a while we drop whatever it is we might pretend to do every day and get on the next steamer....."have a life...besides Merion". ::) ::)

About the bunker expert, it seems very reasonable to me for a course to evolve in this manner. As to Merion, I have no idea if there is evidence of that.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #214 on: January 02, 2007, 04:26:36 PM »








David,

If the law required that a Manifest be kept, listing alien passengers bound for America, then, despite the footnote you cited, wouldn't the Manifest require that the port of departure be listed, versus a port of call ?

Perhaps the obtaining of a copy of the law could clarify this.

The reason the outbound Manifest is important is to try to ascertain the time frames.

If the HIW listed, arrived in Cherbourg on May 7th and departed from Cherbourg on May 11th, it would be doubtful that he was studying the great courses of the UK, and doubtful that he was studying any golf courses..

Why do you feel that he would only sail on vessels of the American LInes ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #215 on: January 02, 2007, 04:43:36 PM »
If the HIW listed, arrived in Cherbourg on May 7th and departed from Cherbourg on May 11th, it would be doubtful that he was studying the great courses of the UK, and doubtful that he was studying any golf courses..

Patrick,

I don't even want to speculate on what Emmett might have been doing on his supposed numerous trips back and forth.  

 

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #216 on: January 02, 2007, 04:58:31 PM »
In regards to the notion of a course being grassed first and the hazards added later, that is precisely what happened at Kingston Heath in Melbourne. The course was originally laid out by ex-patriate Scottish professional Dan Soutar in 1923. Royal Melbourne's famed curator Mick Morcom built the course which opened in 1925, without bunkering, with the view that hazards would be added later once they saw how the course played. Sadly for Soutar, but not so sadly for Australian golf, Kingston Heath heard of Dr Mackenzie's coming trip to Australia in 1926 and decided to commission the Dr to prepare a bunkering scheme. This he did and it was implemented by Morcom's son Vern.

So the hypothesis suggested is entirely possible and is backed up by historical eveidence at Kingston Heath, and I am sure at a number of other courses as well. Whether this happened at Merion is another thing. If Travis, who by this time was a fairly experienced architect himself, called Merion a "rough draft", then what do we suppose he meant by that I wonder?

Pat
In regard to the manifests, they are nearly all from the final port of departure, which in Wilson's case was Cherbourg apparently. Even today when filling in an arrivals form when flying in to a country from overseas they ask for the last port of departure, not your first or second. It's just the way they do things.

DavidM
Are there no British arrivals manifests that can be searched? The British would have been sticklers for recording this kind of information but the info may not be online and you may need a modern day trip to the UK to search for them, unless you can find a colleague or friend in the UK who can do the searching for you.

cheers Neil

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #217 on: January 02, 2007, 05:20:05 PM »
"Couldn't the trip to NGLA and the input on subsequent visits by CB and W, have been centered NOT ON THE PLAYING ASPECTS OF STRATEGY, BUT CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUE AND AGRONOMY, as Mike states above?"

RJ:

Apparently you aren't aware that from Feb 1, 1911 until well into the mid 1920s Hugh and Alan Wilson and Piper and Oakley corresponded with one another in over 2,000 letters. That's a lot of correspondence.

How many letters did they have with Macdonald on agronomy? It looks like about zippo to me.

And why do you suppose that was? It was because Macdonald was having massive agronomy problems of his own at NGLA even when the Merion Committee went to visit him. He was having those problems because he had very little idea what he should be doing agronomically. Obviously Macdonald came to realize there may be one one place to turn for advice and help----The United States Department of Agriculture!

What Macdonald did for Wilson and Merion agronomically was to tell them to get in touch with two US Dept of Agriculture guys called Piper and Oakley just as he had done for advice.

Here is what may be the first of the Wilsons 2,000 "agronomy" letters with the US Dept of Agriculture;

"Dear Sir:-
                 The Merion Golf Club have purchased one hundred and seventeen (117) acres of land, with the intention of providing a permanent golf course, and want to do everything possible to make the new Course a really good one from every stand point.
                   Mr Charles Macdonald spoke of you and said that you could help us out if any one could. We realize the value of his advice and immediately decided that we would write you and ask if you would be good enough to help us out.
                  After studying the matter over, we find what a big problem we have on our hands and how little real knowledge. If you could find it possible to arrange to analyze the soil, we will be only too glad to stand any expense that you would be put to. Our idea is to get the best anaylsis we can of the soil and what is needed to fertilize the ground, with a view of getting the best short growing grasses.
                  I am sending you under separate cover, a contour map, and if you could arrange to analyze the soil and advise us what fertilizer it needs, please say what sections you would like samples of soil from and we will send them to you.
                 If by any chance you are coming up to Philadelphia, I sincerely hope that you will look us up, for it would be a great opportunity for us to take you out to the Course and have a chance to talk the matter over with you. We could put you up at the Club and sincerely trust that you will let us know if you are coming up at any time.

                                               Very Turly Yours,
                                                   Hugh I. Wilson
                                               For the Committee"

Unless this agronomy effort's architectural counterpart at Merion has been completely lost it appears it was not architecture perhaps so much as agronomy that was the primary concern for the rest of Hugh Wilson's life, particularly the agronomy of Merion and America. Of course he did lay out or assisted in a few other courses of which we are aware and interesting their agronomy too, and their problems are often covered in this remarkable string of letters over 14 years.

And so began, even before the first piece of dirt was turned at Merion in Ardmore, this amazing relationship between Merion's Hugh and Alan Wilson and Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture that in less than ten years became basically the beginning of the USGA Green Section that was the "go to" resource and research entity for golf agronomy. What was Macdonald's part in this? When in the late teens as the USGA's Green Committee board was being formed in preparation to create the USGA Green Section both men asked C.B. Macdonald to join their board.

He refused.

Did Hugh Wilson also write and chronicle a commensurate interest in actual architecture, design and construction? It would seem just remarkable to me that he wouldn't have but where the hell is it? What ever happened to it? Perhaps such as us just don't really understand what was going on back then and in what particular areas.

If we want to get into what the American architects who acheived some greatness really thought about the details and nuts and bolts of golf architecture, construction, strategic concepts et al per se we just may need to look forward a bit and into the 1920s at least when a massive obstacle in golf was beginning to really be overcome---eg as Hugh Wilson said, not just how to grow grass but how to really establish permanent turf!!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 05:48:35 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #218 on: January 02, 2007, 05:34:01 PM »
OK Tom,

that is 2000 letters in a 15 year period...based on all accounts so far, that will qualify you to know better than Hugh Wilson himself where he was, and when.

That's an average of about 130 letters per year, lay out the timeline of where he was, and end this madness.

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #219 on: January 02, 2007, 06:00:23 PM »
Neil:

There is no question at all that the evolution of Merion, particularly the bunkering and their grassing was precisely that---eg evolutionary.

It took the club a number of years to evolve them the way they apparently wanted them to be. Was this OJT, or by preconceived design? I would say from what-all was happening agronomically around Merion throughout Wilson and Flynn's lives and times (it was essentially an agronomic laboratory) it was probably mostly OJT in the first number of years and then perhaps by design later.

It is definitely not lost on Wayne and I that this is the very same modus operandi with bunker grassing, particularly, that Flynn basically used throughout his entire career. The fact that Flynn was considered to be, along with Wilson, one of America's best agronomist who was just fascinated by all things "grass" this is probably not unusual.

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #220 on: January 02, 2007, 09:47:04 PM »
RJ:

With respect to your interesting assumptions on post #253, it appears from all these "agronomy" letters that it just didn't happen like that at Merion East, even in the very beginning. Not even close to happening like that.

First of all, if you could see the general areas of most of the important architectural features of Merion East, even back then in the beginning, including green sites and bunker placements, I really doubt a massive problem of "sheet drainage" was ever much concern there. The letters and all the complex problems they had then just don't reflect at all what you say.

Basically, I think, despite what some on here think about the fact that they may've been novices, they definitely were NOT that uneducated and uninformed.

What the agronomy letters show about Merion East and Wilson even in the beginning about any type of drainage problems at Merion were drainage problems at that site that a C.B. Macdonald, at that time, was definitely in no position whatsoever to know or understand or advise them beneficially about. The reason was, at that time, Macdonald had no experience on the drainage problems of a site like Merion--ie a very clayey loam site---eg not great "through the profile drainage". Macdonald's ongoing problems with NGLA which at a that time he had not figured out or overcome was that NGLA's "through the profile drainage" was too good, too fast----basically the opposite of an indigenous soil structure type like Merion's.

It was basically Wilson with the ongoing help of Piper and Oakley who overcame over time whatever type of drainage problems Merion ever had.

Essentially those original greens at Merion didn't drain well enough---they held too much water. That had to be changed somehow. Wilson actually artificially flooded some of them in an early effort at a basic perk test, which he then understood was a perk test or slow drainage disaster on many of them.

The irony is that even today, Merion's greens, many of which are original to the teens, are what present superintendent Matt Shaeffer calls "bathtubs". By that he mean they basically are "through the deep profile" draining disasters.

How does he handle this inherent problem?

Pretty simple really---he puts almost no water on them!  ;)

It is getting pretty funny to watch some of you guys speculate about what happened back then, and by whom and why.

It's something like watching a dart game late at night---there are some hits but a whole lot of distant misses.  ;)

ForkaB

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #221 on: January 03, 2007, 06:17:20 AM »
Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" was on the tube 2 nights ago, and it reminded of this thread.

Blessed are the cheesemakers..........

PS--to those who read this reply when I got the movies mixed up (i.e. before the edit), the thread is also evocative of "The Holy Grail"  I can see Dave M. as the Black Knight "It's just a flesh wound!".  As for TEP, he was probably there at the time......
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 07:00:51 AM by Rich Goodale »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #222 on: January 03, 2007, 07:50:06 AM »
TEP -

Fascinating about the variances in water usage.  

Does anyone know the annual water usage for pure clay courses in GA?

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #223 on: January 03, 2007, 07:53:59 AM »
Richard the Magnificent:

Happy New Year to you over there.

BobC:

I don't know what the water usage is in the red clay of Georgia but I know about what it should be. It should between 5.3-5.7 million silver teaspoon per year. Yes, the difference in drainage at NGLA and Shinbone vs perhaps Merion as apparently reflected in the vast difference in usage for the same basic effect sure was beginning to concern me for a night or so. What was really beginning to worry me is I was fixxin' to call a bunch of people some serious hypocritical liars until the mighty Bill Salinetti set our heads straight early the next morn. You better copy that post above because I'm deleting it in the next 12 seconds and sending it to RJ on the IM. There's too much stuff on there about people and places who may not wanta be in this barroom brawl in Dodge City on a Friday night. On the other hand if I'm gonna get into a barroom brawl on here over this stuff I'll take Michaud and Salinetti on my side any day. Sick those two guys on that little pest from SoCal and we would never see him again.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 08:11:52 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .
« Reply #224 on: January 03, 2007, 08:09:25 AM »
Tom - As little as Georgia clay percolates, 5.3 to 5.7 million silver teaspoons might be too much. :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 08:09:45 AM by BCrosby »

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