Wilson and the Committee visit MacDonald and NGLA . . .

[TEPaul]

"One hope I have out of all this discussion is that it heightens the awareness of various people to keep on the look-out for previously unexamined letters and documents.  Perhaps, some old family has letters of an old great grandfather who might have been an original member of Merion, or some acquaintence who might mention or describe these events."

That may happen RJ;

Just recently a club member who is perhaps the closest family member to Hugh Wilson left has apparently gotten interested in searching for whatever vestiges may be left outside Merion and perhaps in Wilson's remaining family somewhere.

These kinds of avenues generally turn out to be depressingly dead-endish, but not always. One never knows what's out there in attics and basements and barns or whatnot that noone ever thought anyone would ever care about again. If something interesting turns up that way it wouldn't be the first time. Flynn's career inventory of drawings turned up that way not so long ago.

But if we find something good and relevent and David Moriarty wants to see any of it he better figure out a better way to ask for it first, that's for damn sure. After the way he's been carrying on towards us on these two ridiculous threads if he actually thinks we feel any responsibility to provide anything to him this way he's sadly mistaken.

[TEPaul]

JES:

Regarding post #172, if anyone is going to put together a reliable timeline of events on the creation of Merion East that has any real significance to a more accurate understanding of the creation history of Merion East they'll need to use all the available timeline elements, and that is something I don't see David Moriarty doing. His timelines and their elements and events seem to be designed for one purpose only and that is simply to promote at all costs his seemingly preposterous hypothesis that somehow M&W have been shafted regarding the credit they deserve on the creation of Merion.

Just to prove to you what I mean by that, at this point, and frankly throughout these Merion threads of his he cannot point to anything that any of us have said about the advice and involvement of M&W with Merion East that would in any way minimize, discount or denegrate their involvement as it is supported by the historical record that we are all dealing with here. Perhaps he thinks it's just a matter of interpretation but after-all none of us here have ever said we are denying that M&W did offer some advice at some point and that they did have at least three visits both at NGLA and in Philadelphia with Wilson and the Merion Construction Committee. We've never disputed any of that, and we've been aware of all of it long before David Moriarty came along on this subject.

We have always used the very same historical record of written documentation and events that he has only we've had so much more of it than he had. Almost all the relevent material that he did not have that he has now came from us. Of course his interpretations of the historical record are not ours but that is completely beside the point as to the actual sum and substance of the Merion historical record. Again, if the only issue in all of this is only exactly how to interpret the mention of M&W's advice and involvement, then, in our opinion, that has always been a pretty small point given all the available information on who else was responsible for the laying out, design and construction of Merion East.

We, and others have asked David Moriarty a number of times if he believes that in some way this could be used to construe that M&W may've actually been responsible for the laying out (routing), design and construction of Merion East, or at least a good deal more of it than the Merion record has ever implied, and in each case he has said no. So, if that's true, then who was it that was the architect and who was it that laid out, designed and constructed Merion East? Logically, it was in the main the very same people the record has always showed did it and the ones we maintain did it in the main.

So, if that's the case, what is all this about anyway???  

I'll give you a good example here of some of the areas in this evidence that may be useful to look into more carefully;

David Moriarty did find that 1912 manifest of Wilson traveling to Europe that none of us have ever been aware of. That was an excellent find and it is a most interesting find and could lend some investigative help in determing whether or not that really was Wilson's first trip abroad for Merion or his second or perhaps one of many.

On that 1912 manifest is a potentially interesting piece of information and that is that it says he was apparently traveling alone---eg it says he's traveling as "a single". This is something no one seems interested in looking into, and seemingly to date certainly not David Moriarty despite me mentioning it to him a few times on these threads.

Why is that potentially interesting in all this?

In my opinion, it is if one compares it to that letter Colt wrote (which I posted on here) to Wilson in the early 1920s asking, among other things, that Wilson give his wife Mrs Colt's best.

The question is where would Mrs Colt and Mrs Wilson have met each other?

Did Mrs Colt travel to America with Harry on any of his apparently two to three trips over here? If so, then they may've met over here, and this bit of potentially interesting information would logically cease to be interesting or determinative in this subject's questions.

But if Mrs Colt never did travel to America with Harry then that would pretty much mean that Mrs Wilson and Mrs Colt met each other in GB at some point and logically at the Colt home in or around Sunningdale.

The next quesiton would be when? We know Harry mentioned in that letter that he and Wilson had not seen each other in years.

So perhaps the trip that Mrs Wilson met Mrs Colt was one that preceded the creation of Merion East. If so that's proof that Wilson did go to GB before Merion East, and obviously to study golf architecture if he was visiting with Harry Colt in England, in the Heathlands and at Sunningdale.

Not to mention the fact that Colt mentioned in that letter that he and Mrs Colt had moved to the village of Old Berkshire and that he felt Hugh would very much appreciate seeing that.

Why would Colt mention that he and Mrs Colt had moved their residence if Wilson had never been to their home in England in the first place? Would you tell someone years later you'd moved if they'd never been to your residence in the first place?  

I've mentioned all this before but David Moriarty failed each time to even acknowledge it. Why is that if he really wants to investigate Hugh Wilson's trip or trips abroad?

Running a seemingly trivial bit of information like this to ground just could be the single element that could establish one of the most important timeline elements of all in this entire saga.

[TEPaul]

"Ironically, you guys are so set on your preconceptions that you have apparently failed to think this through.  

What happens if the facts turn out against you guys on this one?  What if the facts prove that Merion East was initially routed, constructed, and sowed before Wilson went overseas?   You will have put yourselves in an unenviable position.  What would you guys believe then?  

Will you argue, as you are now, that there is no way that the pre-trip Wilson and his committee could have done it?  That it had to have been MacDonald or someone else who really deserves credit for the course?  After all, you guys have left no doubt that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY WAY A PRE-TRIP WILSON AND HIS COMMITTEE COULD HAVE CREATED THE INITIAL MERION EAST, EVEN WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MACDONALD.    

Or, if the facts go against you, will you change your tune about Wilson’s pre-trip abilities?  

Things can get pretty complicated when you commit to your final conclusion before you fully understand all the facts."



David Moriarty:

Well, after all this time, this really is what this is all about to you, isn't it?

I'm so glad you said what you did above and taht all can now see this and really understand it.  

All along you have been trying to construct this elaborate thread of logic and argumentation to attempt to eventually prove that Wayne and I have been so set in 'our preconceptions that we have apparently failed to think this through.'

Think it through how so, Moriarty??

What do you really think we have failed to think through??

Do you think it's that we have failed to think through that M&W deserve more credit in the laying out, design and construction of Merion East?? And if that's what you think, why is that?

All along and long before you came along we've been more than aware of all the evidence and from whom that mentioned that M&W advised Wilson and the Merion Committee. We have known of every single bit of all that evidence. We have never minimized or discounted a bit of any of it. It is, in fact, all part of the Merion record!!

So what is it that concerns you here? Is it that I have said in the past on these threads that I feel that the vast majority of credit for the laying out, design and construction of Merion East should go to those who were there every day---eg Wilson, his committee, Pickering, Flynn, Valentine et al??

And if that's all there is to this, do you really think you've produced a single shread of evidence that would make that fact in any way untrue??

I don't think so, and if that's the case the only possible reason you persist on these threads is for the very reason that is now pretty patently obvious from what I quoted from you above----and that is your sole purpose on this entire subject has become and has probably always been to somehow show up Wayne or I in some way no matter how petty it may be.

Obviously the instincts of people like JES and Mike Cirba who have mentioned this were correct and it is now more than confirmed and ironically by your very own words quoted above on this post.

Congratulations, Moriarty, your ceaseless petty argumentation has now come full cycle and has finally hoisted you on your very own petard on these threads as to what your true point and purpose is and has always been.

I doubt anyone is interested in that.

 

[TEPaul]

"Ironically, you guys are so set on your preconceptions that you have apparently failed to think this through.  

What happens if the facts turn out against you guys on this one?  What if the facts prove that Merion East was initially routed, constructed, and sowed before Wilson went overseas?   You will have put yourselves in an unenviable position.  What would you guys believe then?  

Will you argue, as you are now, that there is no way that the pre-trip Wilson and his committee could have done it?  That it had to have been MacDonald or someone else who really deserves credit for the course?  After all, you guys have left no doubt that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY WAY A PRE-TRIP WILSON AND HIS COMMITTEE COULD HAVE CREATED THE INITIAL MERION EAST, EVEN WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MACDONALD.    

Or, if the facts go against you, will you change your tune about Wilson’s pre-trip abilities?  

Things can get pretty complicated when you commit to your final conclusion before you fully understand all the facts."

David Moriarty:

It actually took me a bit of time to fully appreciated what you just said above. It took me some time simply because it is just so unbelievable and is even more confirmation of what you must be up to here.

First of all, I have never said on any of these threads that I believe there is no way "pre-trip" that Wilson and his committee could've routed, designed and constructed Merion East. I've never implied such a think, insinuated or even mentioned it!!! And the reason is patently clear and simple. It's because I do not believe such a thing and never have, whether Wilson went to GB before the creation of the course or afterwards. The record of Merion East's creation is very clear to me and that is that Wilson and his Committee layed out, designed and constructed that course, PERIOD!! You are the one who's trying to get around to implying if he didn't go before hand that must mean he was too much of a novice to do it. I never said anything of the kind and I do not believe such a thing.

The fact of the matter, and the historical record IS THAT Wilson and his committee layed out, designed and constructed that golf course----PERIOD. All this "pre-trip" or "post-trip" crap is your invention and your trumped up implications, and definitely not mine. Apparently you are so proud of your one little research find here you feel the need to put thoughts and motives and needless other crap in the mouths of others to try to further whatever odd point you make next. It's jsut unbelievable!!

Where in God's name do you come up with crap like this anyway?

Are you so intent on proving Wayne and I wrong about something that you've now sunk to simply putting words in our mouths out of the blue??

This thread and your "hypotheses" and arguments have now just sunk to a new low and pathetic level.

There is no way at all that you can confirm that I ever said such a thing or insinuated it so don't try and weasel out of it. Face it like somebody who at least understands some semblance of the concept of honesty. And don't hand me this pathetic "post deleting" crap again because the subject of no "pre-trip" did not come up until this particular thread and I haven't deleted a single post from this thread.

I do not for a minute believe that Wilson COULD NOT have routed, designed and constructed Merion East if he did not go to GB first.

That notion is obviously some gig you're trying to weave on here. The fact that you'd even think to put that notion in our mouths is shocking.

That entire contention is obviously the very thing that you alone have been trying to get to here and now you have the lack of sense TO TRY TO PUT THOSE WORDS AND THOSE THOUGHTS IN MY MOUTH???

"After all, you guys have left no doubt that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY WAY A PRE-TRIP WILSON AND HIS COMMITTEE COULD HAVE CREATED THE INITIAL MERION EAST, EVEN WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MACDONALD."

I just cannot believe that even you would say something like that on here, and at this point.  It's just unbelievable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I"m troubled by the S.S. Philadelphia's Manifest since it lists the port of departure as Cherbourg and not Liverpool or Southampton.

A review of the route of the S.S. Philadelphia as provided by the steamship company indicates that it's ports were New York, Liverpool-Southampton.

It was not uncommon for ships to stop in Cherbourg to pick up or drop off passengers prior to, or at the end of their transatlantic voyages.

However, why would the Wilson listed in the Manifest have his port of departure listed as Cherbourg if he was in fact departing from the UK ?

He wouldn't.

He would have had his port of departure listed as Southampton or Liverpool.

The manifest clearly shows that the Wilson listed boarded the ship in France and not in the UK.

I would ask Dave to produce the Manifest/s from the same vogage, which lists the passengers from the departure ports of Liverpool and Southampton.   If Wilson's name is on that Manifest it would indicate a system of reverification for departing alien passengers aboard the ship at every port

If his name is absent from those Manifests, it would indicate that the Wilson listed was in France and not the UK.

That wouldn't preclude him from having been in the UK prior to sailing to France, but, it does throw further doubt on David's theory.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

What is your point about Wilson departing from Cherbourg? What does that have to do with this subject? What if Wilson got himself to France during this trip to GB and just left for home from France instead of England?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

David produced a manifest which he presented as evidence that Wilson visited the UK in 1912, departing in May, I believe.

However, the Wilson listed, boarded in Cherbourg, not the UK.

Hence, there's no evidence that David's presented that confirms that Wilson was in the UK in 1912.

If David presents a theory, then the facts which support it have to be in evidence.  I was just pointing out that he's failed to support his theory.

P.S.  Would you want to visit and study the courses in the UK in the Fall, Winter, Spring or Summer ?

I'd elect the Summer, but, that's just me.

P.S.S.  Would you want to sail the North Atlantic in the Fall, Winter, Spring or Summer ?

I'd elect the Summer, but, that's just me.

Especially after the Titanic was sunk by an iceberg on April 12th.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

Doesn't what Travis wrote in January 1913 seem to imply not only that Wilson had gone to France on his trip, but that he brought back either seed or samples of grasses that he used at Merion?

"On some of the sand mounds I noticed the growing of something which looked suspiciously like the bents of Le Touquet..."

David, even though you haven't had the time to answer my twice-asked question, I have no problem with you laying out a timeline for JES created "by compilation and examination of the facts..." as long as they are FACTS and not suppositions presented as such.

In other words, until you present proof that the Wilson on the manifest WAS the Wilson of Merion then ou can only state it as a SUPPOSITION and if presented that way I would have no quarrel with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here is a 1910 photo of the first green on the Sahara hole.
 

IS THIS THE 2ND HOLE OR THE 3RD HOLE ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip Young,

You asked David Moriarty not to speculate and then you speculate that Wilson went to France and brought back seed and/or samples of grass that he planted on the mounds at Merion.

On what date did Merion East open in 1912 ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

Don't lecture me on what it is and is not appropriate or productive for me to research or consider.  You obviously have no idea.

_____________________________

Ironically, you guys are so set on your preconceptions that you have apparently failed to think this through.  

What happens if the facts turn out against you guys on this one?  What if the facts prove that Merion East was initially routed, constructed, and sowed before Wilson went overseas?   You will have put yourselves in an unenviable position.  What would you guys believe then?  

Will you argue, as you are now, that there is no way that the pre-trip Wilson and his committee could have done it?  That it had to have been MacDonald or someone else who really deserves credit for the course?  After all, you guys have left no doubt that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY WAY A PRE-TRIP WILSON AND HIS COMMITTEE COULD HAVE CREATED THE INITIAL MERION EAST, EVEN WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MACDONALD."

David Moriarty:

This is what you said and you addressed it to me. This is what you said I believe, clearly construing that I said such a thing on here. YOUR remarks in capital letters are a bold-faced lie. It's as simple as that. There is no way for you to deny it or weasel out of it. That remark is a bold-faced lie on your part.

When I asked you to retract it on the IM you refused on here. Furthermore you seem to be defending this remark on here again, as if to imply again that I said such a thing. This is completely unacceptable.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

The difference ebtween my speculation and David's is that I stated that it was speculation and offered a reason for doing so.

He stated that the Wilson named on the manifest is THE Wilson as a stipulated fact. That is just not true and must still be proven.

I actually didn't really speculate as much as ASK if Travis was implying that Wilson had gone to France based upon his comment. I think it is a quite reasonable question to ask.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

The photograph shows the old original green on the Sahara hole---#2 now and #11 when that photo was taken. Macdonald moved that green about 60 plus yards farther out from where it originally was to where it is today.

[Mike_Cirba]

What I mean by that is that I do believe it is possible that the "pre-trip" Wilson and Committee may have designed the East course, particularly considering that both Flynn and Pickering had previous design and construction experience, respectively.   I still think it's probably unlikely, but it's certainly not beyond the pale.

Okay, I am glad you see it this way.  But then you cannot have it both ways.  

 . . . On the one hand you seem to be saying that, perhaps pre-trip Wilson could have pulled it off, because of the influence of people like Flynn and Pickering.
 . . . On the other hand, you seem to be saying that: if Macdonald taught and advised the pre-trip Wilson as described, then it would have been absolutely impossible for Wilson to ever have pulled off Merion.  Absent a Vulcan Mind Meld, that is.
. . . So it is not as if Macdonald's teaching and advice is only negligible.  It is actually less-than-zero.  Pre-trip Wilson would have been better off if he had never heard of Macdonald!  I find this hard to accept.

You cannot consistently believe that maybe pre-trip Wilson could have pulled it off, but also believe that "unless Macdonald knew the Vulcan Mind Meld, and applied it to Hugh Wilson during their brief time together, then as Spock would say, "your hypothesis is completely illlogical and as remote as the moons of planet Remulon"!

So, which is it?

David,

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well.

Let me try again at this ungodly hour.

I do believe that the "pre-trip" committee COULD have designed and built the course for the reasons I mentioned.

My point about Macdonald is this;

Let's say you're hypothesis is correct and it was largely Macdonald and Whigham who laid out the original course at Merion, before Wilson and the committee went to NGLA, or at least before Wilson went overseas.

If that were true, then when and where did Wilson get the wherewithal and internal and external reputation to be asked to design the West course within a year of the East being built?   Why were M&W NEVER consulted again, EVER?

Why was Wilson asked by Clarence Geist to then design Seaview the next year?   Why was he asked by the city of Philly the following year?

If what he had learned from M&W in those three days was so vital to the creation of Merion East, or conversely, if M&W actually did most of the layout and design, then why did the committee and membership of Merion never have them consult again?   Why would they have let novice Wilson continue to make significant changes to the East course for the next 13 years?  

If Wilson had been so dependent on M&W for their advice and counsel, and if he was such a novice to have been clueless without their 3 whole days of assistance, then why would any of this have happened, and why would people like Behr, like Tillinghast, and local contemporaneous newswriters have given him credit in the first place for the layout of the two courses at Merion?

It just defies any logic or common sense, David.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You wrote (once again I might add) that, "I do believe that the "pre-trip" committee COULD have designed and built the course for the reasons I mentioned."

Much appears to be made about Wilson's and the majority of the rest of the Committee's "lack of experience" in doubting their ability to design not one, but two outstanding courses in a short period of time. Afetr all, from where did they get the knowledge to enable them to do so?

Let's ask this, was  it unheard of, at that time, for an individual or group of neophyte's to go out and design outstanding golf courses that were universally recognized as such?

What about a good friend of Wilson, one who has been quooted from freely throughout and who has NEVER been challenged in any way for his design in 1909 and building to open in 1911 of the Shawnee CC. Of course I'm speaking of A.W. Tillinghast.

He had no experience, no formal training, no college learning (or at least any that he passed as he flunked out of every school his father sent him to and paid for), etc...

So, how did he manage to design Shawnee that was playing host to an open tournament that was recognized as important and a place that the best would play at, and that would be given awarded the 1919 U.S. Women's Amateur championship?

Or did M&W advise Tilly as well?  

Could it possibly be that this group of friends, including the "Philadelphia School guys" and others, educated themselves in their own discussions during their seemingly non-stop golf outings?

To build a course of Merion's stature without accepted standing and training would not then be unheard of nor would it necesarily be beyond the ability of Wilson and the Committee to do it sans a great deal of advice from M&W.

They were given advice by them which they freely accepted and appreciated. We know that. How much they ACCEPTED and put into PRACTICE in the design and finished build we don't.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Of course you are right, both historically (factually) and intuitively in what you said above about the capacity of those early amateur architects to produce what we know they did produce.

Occasionally this website and particularly a few contributors seem to be laboring under some misconception that those men could not have done what they did and on their own to a remarkable extent.

David Moriarty has set up on here a series of "hypotheses" to create implications that Wilson and his Committee could not have done what he and they did without having had to depend far more than anyone heretofore realized on Macdonald or Whigam to be told and shown what to do to layout, design and construct Merion East.

Now on this thread he's set up a number of "straw-men" to support his ridiculous and historically and factually unsupportable hypotheses-----straw-men like the "initial stage" of Merion East that he's now attempting to label a "first draft". ; ) Where does he get these ideas and these terms?? Good question, and if we look back on these unfortunate threads he started about Merion's creation we can see he dreamed them all up and attempted to foist them on us. And for what point really? No point that I can see other than to continue arguing with everyone past the point of logic.

Now we have this "pre-trip" straw-man that he created and is attempting to imply might mean that Wilson must have had to depend on Macdonald more than we ever realized if he did not travel to GB before starting to build Merion East.

Where did these things come from---eg “the initial stage” ie “the first draft” of Merion East? Is it anywhere in Merion’s considerable historical record? Of course not. It’s just a straw-man debating ploy Moriarty is trying to use and not successfully, I might add.

I have a pretty hard time contemplating that both Hugh and Alan Wilson were wholly incorrect in mentioning that Wilson went to GB, studied architecture and then built the course. If they’d written such a thing and it was wholly nonfactual wouldn’t one think numerous people at Merion and elsewhere who observed the entire thing would have said so? David Moriarty just sloughs off this reality with the off-hand remark that Alan Wilson must have had a poor memory or was attempting to glorify his brother.

It seems clear from the likes of Moriarty and MacWood when they can think of nothing else or can find nothing that they resort to accusing Philadelphia golf and most of us here of attempting to glorify Wilson or Crump in some attempt to minimize someone else not from here. Those baseless remarks are merely hollow and petty carping for reasons not very understandable other than some personal agenda or in some weak and pathetic attempt to prove some of us around here wrong at all costs.

It seems pretty clear to me that Hugh Wilson went to GB before starting the golf course but if he for some reason didn’t, it’s of no real difference anyway because the fact is he and his Committee routed, designed and constructed that golf course anyway and there’s not a damn thing anyone like a David Moriarty is ever going to say to prove it otherwise. Forced and tortured logic from Moriarty such as he must have been a total novice and it would’ve been impossible doesn’t really matter. He and his committee did what he’s always been given credit for doing anyway and frankly that’s most of the fascination of it all which obviously Moriarty is too historically dense to even contemplate.

We don’t need Moriarty’s “hypotheses”, we don’t need his “straw-men” to support his hypotheses, we don’t need his timelines to analyze either. Merion doesn’t need someone like Moriarty to reanalyze or reinterpret its history. Its history has been accurately written when it comes to Wilson and his Committee. We don’t need threads like this either. At the very least they’re a waste of time and at worst they’re amateurish attempts at revisionist history.

Macdonald and Whigam by any account probably spent no more that four days total involved with Merion East, and for that they were given their deserved due and credit by Merion, and Hugh and Alan Wilson and others.

There just isn’t any more to say about it. There is no puzzle-piece, as Moriarty initially suggested. And there is no puzzle as he’s been trying to imply.

The only legitimate piece of the puzzle of the long-term evolution of the creation of Merion East was William Flynn’s part in it, particularly after about 1915. That had never been particularly well known or understood before a few years ago. But with the reemergence a few years ago of all his drawings of Merion and its holes from the teens on that has now become clear and he has been given his deserved due and credit alongside Wilson, his Construction Committee, Pickering, the foreman, and eventually Joe Valentine the greenkeeper who succeeded William Flynn. This is the whole story of the creation of Merion East that has been told along with the mention of Macdonald and Whigam’s advice for two days at NGLA and for perhaps a day at the end of 1910 and a day in the spring of 1911.

Merion does not need David Moriarty to reinvestigate, reanalyze and reinterpret the creation of this golf course and neither do we. And I certainly do know we don't need him to lie about what others on here believe or have said as he did with me, and exaccerbated it by refusing to admit it when I pointed it out. That he lied about what I said or believe is not debatable either, it's right on a few posts in the last day and anyone who can read can see it. These Merion threads should be locked or simply left to slide mercifully into the back pages where they belong.

[TEPaul]

As a back-check on the Hugh Wilson trips to Europe is there any way one could check to see if Harry Colt brought Mrs Colt to the USA with him on any of this 2-3 trips to the USA? If anyone is checking any more ship manifests check for Harry Colt (and his wife?) coming over here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The photograph shows the old original green on the Sahara hole---#2 now and #11 when that photo was taken. Macdonald moved that green about 60 plus yards farther out from where it originally was to where it is today.

TEPaul,

We've seen mislabeled photos before.

I recall seeing this photo previously and believe that it was labeled as the old 12th, current 3rd green.

The 2nd hole, Sahara, was originally 262 yards.
262 yards puts you almost in the middle of the current green from the tee on the right edge of the 1st green, which is where the original tee was, and certainly not in the middle of a hill 60 yards removed from the crest of the hill.

Are you positive that this isn't an early picture of the old 12th, current 3rd hole ?

Would you give me 1 1/2-1 odds ?  

Lunch and dinner vs dinner ?

[TEPaul]

By the way, David Moriarty, I don't believe I presented the possibility of Mrs Colt traveling with Harry to America (or Mrs Wilson traveling with Hugh to GB) as a "theory", as you can see above I merely asked the question of whether or not anyone knew? Why did either of you not think to ask? I mentioned a number of days ago that Mrs Wilson or Mrs Colt obviously knew each other and the question then becomes where did they meet each other---in England or in the United States?  

Harry also mentioned in that letter (in the early 1920s) that he and Mrs Colt had moved to a beautiful little village in old Berkshire and that he hoped that Hugh mighr come over so he might show it to him. It seems a bit odd that Harry would tell Hugh many years later that he'd moved if Hugh had never known where he lived in the first place, don't you think?

It appears that Hugh Wilson might have visited Sunningdale at some point and the Merion history does make a passing reference to that possibility vis-a-vis the wicker basket standards of Merion East.

[TEPaul]

"So the quote which has you enraged wasn't specifically addressed to you.  Rather, it was addressed to everyone who has used Wilson's over-seas trip as evidence that Macdonald's help was mainly preparatory, and wasn't all that useful or helpful regarding the layout of the course.  You and many others tried to make this point repeatedly on the last thread.  Mike Cirba and Patrick Mucci continue to do so.  As for you, I don't know if you have continued to do so or not.  I havent bothered to read most of what you have written on this thread and I do not intend to."

David Moriarty:

Good, then apparently you are hereby admitting you now understand that I absolutely never said such a thing. If so, I'll consider that a retraction that you said such a thing. In the future perhaps you should try to make things more clear than just using a line. The point on both this thread and the other one is that you constantly talk about the prospect of Wayne and I being wrong about something or how you seem to be proving us wrong about something. You do that so much on here one would think that's your sole motivation on these threads. JES and Mike Cirba certainly picked up on that as of course they should have.

Tom MacWood, on the other hand, got even more egregious about what some of this discussion means about Merion East. He actually said that this proves that now no one knows or can prove who designed Merion East. That remark very well could be one of the stupidest remarks ever made on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. Obviously Tom MacWood must not understand what a simple process of illimination means.  

I never said such a thing as your bold type remark suggested because I don't believe it and I never have. If Wilson did not travel to GB before the course went into construction I do not believe that proves anything----eg I do not believe that it proves perhaps what your "hypothesis" is that he was too much of a novice to layout, design and build the golf course and thereby must've had to depend more on Macdonald or Whigam. The fact is he and his commitee did layout the course, design and build it regardless of when he went to GB.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That photo of that original green that is labeled #11 (now #2) always seemed sort of odd to figure out to me too. That original photo is in one of the old photo albums in the main room of the clubhouse.

The angle and orientation seems hard to figure out. I think it might show the original green just over what is now the Sahara bunker on the crest of the hill. I believe I saw something from Macdonald explaining that the hole was once about 215 yards but that he eventually moved that green about 60 yards farther out.

I think the angle of that photo showing the hill in the rear of that photo is what is to the right of the current hole. On top of that hill is where I think the clubhouse of Sebonack now sits.

I also think that sandy area just below the large bunker is what became for a time the drive to the clubhouse (which probably wasn't built at the time of that photo) before the new drive was created after the original #14 (Cape Hole) green was moved. That old road to the clubhouse is what is now the maintenance road running past #2 and past the windmill.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If you read what MacDonald wrote in the May, 1914 Edition of "Golf Illustrated" with respect to how to play the hole, I think you'll change your mind.

His quote can be found on pages 85-86 of George Bahto's book.

In essence, he states that for the golfer who can't carry 200 yards, he can still reach the green by hitting to the right and carrying 185 yards with a hook, whereby the ball will reach the green.

In addition, he mentions the diagonal configuration of the bunker which is from long left to short right, just the opposite of what is pictured.

The photo shown is of # 3, NOT # 2.

How are you ever going to understand that moving the gates and road North on # 18 is THE only way to enhance the hole if you can't tell # 2 from # 3 ?  

[TEPaul]

And now, after about six pages of jabbering on this thread and about 30 pages of jabbering on the other Merion thread about all kinds of preconceived and misconceived notions about how this or that fact must mean that there was no way that the novice Hugh Wilson and his Construction Committee of total novices could NOT have laid out, designed and constructed the Merion East Course in the main on their own without far more help, assistance and involvement from the likes of M&W, the time has come for all of us to begin to understand better just how they did layout, design and construct the golf course despite what WE THINK was total inexperience and inability!!!

The fact is that whenever Wilson went to GB that they did layout, design and construct that golf course from the spring of 1911 to September of 1911.

Macdonald obviously did the same thing with NGLA beginning in 1907 before Merion and George Crump did the same thing following Merion. Leeds essentially did the same thing before any of them and Fownes et al did the same thing with Oakmont.

We don't need to reinvestigate and reinterpret the histories of these special courses and projects from that early time to find "hypotheses" of how they couldn't have done it, we need to look more carefully at both why and how they did do it because the fact remains that is precisely what all of them did do.

These are not some mysterious "puzzles" as the MacWoods and Moriartys would have us believe they need to figure out. These are facts that happened just as the histories of these special courses reveal.

Frankly that is precisely the fascination of it all.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

I have that same NGLA photo in my collection.  It is a 1910 or 1911 photo of the Alps (#3) at NGLA and NOT Sahara.

Good eye!

Here is Sahara from the same time period

[Mike_Cirba]

You know Geoffrey...

That first pic of the 2nd at Macdonald's NGLA look a heckuva lot like the drive on the 18th at Merion!!  

Could it be??  Perhaps???   Another Piece???  

Happy New Year!