History and Evolution of Routing, Turnberry (Ailsa)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Looking through my notes and for the sake of completeness: Steel did say Ross deserved full credit; however, he also wrote, "It is a question of apportioning the credit which, in spite of the photo, is not easy."

Regarding Braid, he did design Girvan's course just down the road.  Wonder if that connects in any way.

Does anyone have access to Longhurst's writings?  I don't but recall he was familiar with pre and post war courses. There might be something in there.

Mark

[David Stamm]

I'm not sure where the Braid connection comes from. CK Hutchison did work with Braid at Gleneagles twenty years earlier, but I don't believe they were together here in 1938.

 

Did Hutchison and Braid have a formal partnership at one time?



Fantastic thread. This what GCA is about.

[James Boon]

Thanks to Tom Macwood for resurrecting this thread! After it was mentioned in another thread I spent ages trying to find it... damn search engines! And thanks to Mark Bourgeois and everyone else who has contributed. A great tpical and infromative thread.

I've not played Turnberry but I wonder if when they were re-laying fairways over the top of the various plane taxi and parking areas, if all the tarmac was broken up and removed or was it laid over the top? Could get some big bounces out there?  

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Thinking about the runways etc I wondered what sort of place this was during the second world war. A quick look on the open website and I found this brief history that mentions it as a base for anti u-boat aircraft patrols over the atlantic, though other places I've seen it mentioned as a training base? Here is a link...
http://www.opengolf.com/Home/ChampionshipGolf/TheOpenChampionship/News.aspx?story=Turnberry%20at%20War

To answer my own question above, it mentions that rubble from the runways was used to form new contours etc...
"Rubble from the runways was used to create new sweeping contours and thousands more tons were used in the construction of a new sea wall at the nearby village of Maidens. More than 30,000 cubic yards of topsoil were shipped in before every inch of tees, fairways and greens was turfed, an impossibly expensive operation that has never been repeated."

Cheers,

James

[Brian Phillips]

Looking at Brian's 1949 map, I suspect the damage was much greater than shown. Note that the taxiways and aircraft tie down areas are all on the seaside of the the airfield. That means that hangars, control towers, barracks, etc. would also have been on that side of the runway. Which would have put those buildings in the middle of the golf course.

I'd guess that the WWII damage was substantial.

Bob  

Exactly Bob...just think about the damage outside the runways from jeeps, trucks bombs etc...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Does anyone have access to Longhurst's writings?  I don't but recall he was familiar with pre and post war courses. There might be something in there.

Mark

  "Runway to Fairway"  collected in hardcovers  Golf Mixture 1952.

Will post it tomorrow unless someone can beat me to it. Says that 9 holes were in play but that the others were made by tractors.

I have another guide somewhere that says it was all there before the war but Peter Allen says they were both holiday courses pre war and Ross gave "the full treatment" to the Ailsa course to create what we know.

[Tom MacWood]

Did Hutchison and Braid have a formal partnership at one time?

They never had a formal partnership. The railroad who developed Gleneagles suggested they work together. Hutchison came from a very wealthy family who made their fortune from the railroads. That may have had something to do with his invitation; he was also a very good amateur golfer. That was around 1913.

I don't know if the railway company that developed Gleneagles was the same RR company that owned Turnberry. Its possible they made suggestions around that time, but the major redesign Hutchison carried out was in the late 30s was solo. Hutchison designed Dunblame in the early 20s, and asked Braid to give advice. To my knowledge that was the last time they collaborated.

[Niall C]

Did Hutchison and Braid have a formal partnership at one time?

They never had a formal partnership. The railroad who developed Gleneagles suggested they work together. Hutchison came from a very wealthy family who made their fortune from the railroads. That may have had something to do with his invitation; he was also a very good amateur golfer. That was around 1913.

I don't know if the railway company that developed Gleneagles was the same RR company that owned Turnberry. Its possible they made suggestions around that time, but the major redesign Hutchison carried out was in the late 30s was solo. Hutchison designed Dunblame in the early 20s, and asked Braid to give advice. To my knowledge that was the last time they collaborated.

MacKenzie talks about Gleneagles in his book and infers that Braid did the Kings while Hutchison did the Queens. Both his comments on Gleneagles and Troon read as a sideways dig at Braid so not sure that you can give any credence to the notion that Braid and Hutchison worked separately at Gleneagles.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Actually it’s Longhurst.   I believe he was there during the Open at Troon 1950.

In the introduction he said it was one of his favourite places to holiday pre war.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Tony.

Is there a golf journalist writing today who comes even remotely close to the quality of Longhurst's prose? 

Bob