[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

There has been some light discussion on the 13th hole.  Can you give any insight on the before and after of this hole?

Thanks

[JWL]

Regarding Sebonack and some of the discussion, I thought I would briefly weigh from the other side of the design collaboration team.
Many may be wondering what the other "take" might be regarding what TD had to say in his post about the "look" vs "strategy" conversation.
All I can say about all of that has already been accurately said by TD.   I can't disagree with anything he posted, and I believe it was just a well done collaboration by two talented design teams.   I, like TD, emphasize the word "team", because a lot of people did a lot of very good work at Sebonack, and will most likely never receive any acknowledgement but the companies they represent.   However, that is the nature of being part of a team, and I think all participants realized that before the project started.

I have to smile somewhat when part of the conversation is about TD's holes not being maybe as difficult as JN, and then I read where #2 is regarded as one of, if not, the toughest hole    

[Matt_Ward]

A-Ward to the course with best combo of top flight scenery with lack of design inspiration --

The envelope please ...

Three Creek Ranch (Jackson, Wyoming)

I was hoping this would not be the case but 3 Creek Ranch has the considerable advantage of the Grand Tetons in the background but the overall design is simply a pro-forma Rees Jones layout -- think of Sand Pines moved inland.

Yes, there are a few holes of note but the land is tragically dead flat and little is present to inspire you beyond the views in the nearby mountains.

If you want a nearby site that offers a good bit more head just south of town to Tom Weiskopf's Snake River Sporting Club -- perfectly positioned with the Snake River running through the property and the high hills framing the property. Not all the holes have sizzle here but the totality of the land in the latter demonstrates that locating the course is a big time issue when using spectacular western sites.

[Steve Lapper]

A-Ward to the course with best combo of top flight scenery with lack of design inspiration --

The envelope please ...

   This award and it's title should perpetually go to The Bridge, Bridgehampton, LI. yet most interestingly, Matt has deigned it an "important" course years back. Guess the criteria in Matt's world has changed somewhat.

   Of course, it would be far from me to question any "giant of golf journalism". I supposed that's why no question should be made of "giving the edge to Ballyneal over Sandhills," especially with a decade comparison fresh in the mental notebook. After all, not just any self-proclaimed rankings god can make just any call, can they?

   If I recall correctly, Mr. Ward was promising to illuminate just why or how BN "earns" that edge, but alas, I've done a search and just can't find it.....too bad for the rest of us who looked forward to such a spirited review.

    For the record, I've played  Sebonack, Ballyneal and Sand Hills, all inside a 3mos. span and while dutifully impressed with Tom Doak's spectacular and enlightening efforts, I have a hard time seeing Sand Hills anywhere other than at the top of such a grouping. I'll go one step farther and add that given 10 rounds, I'd split them up: 5 SHGC; 3 SGC; 2 BN. Has anyone else here played all three (or even Sand Hills and BN in any short time time) and how would they split 10 among them?

   I have no problem agreeing as well as endorsing the fact that BN is indeed a fine new addition to the scene and that it will become a successful private club for it's genuinely nice owner & members, but I'm going to be the iconoclast here and vote against annointing it to be the "god-given gift to the GCA crowd." I know of a few others around this place who think the same and some have even given it a delicately appropriate nick-name, but they perhaps, are more diplomatic than me and choose to remain in the background.
Sebonack is better IMHO and Pac. Dunes & Barnbougle (and maybe even St. Andrews Beach & Cape Kidnappers, though I've not seen them yet) are definitely better Doak designs.
It's too late tonight for me to go much further, but I do stand ready to make fully-detailed explanations and comparisons if others are willing to stand up and do the same.

   

   

[John Kirk]

Steve,

I'm sorry.  I don't want to argue Ballyneal and Sand Hills in this forum.  I decided a while back I shouldn't do it.  We'll talk privately about it.  I would expect your playing partner at Ballyneal that day feels the same way.  Once enough of the GCA guys play both BN and SH to make a comparison, I'll let them duke it out.  Besides, I really like Sand Hills, and I always want to be welcome there.



I sense by your post that you feel Ballyneal receives a disproportionate amount of attention here.  Probably true.  On the other hand, the number of people who feel Ballyneal is Tom's best course is small.  Pacific and Barnbougle get the most praise.  And it feels great to even be considered in the argument.

[Steve Lapper]

John,

    I too would rather not argue about them in this forum, certainly not with eminently fair, balanced, and reasonable folks like you. We'll just agree to mildly disagree and retain our personal opinions .  As you know, I too like Ballyneal*and feel it's worthy of considerable praise and attention, just not perhaps, quite ready for any coronation.

    My only reason for making the previous post was to shine light on the very nature of some's predilections for substituting their personal opinions for some kind of public fact. I don't think anyone's idiosyncratic taste or predisposition should be deemed any type of defacto truth or representation of broad public taste without the disinfectant of an appropriate amount of sunshine and constructive debate and a full detail of the facts.

   All that said, you are 1000% CORRECT in your pleasure to find BN (and your other very fine "desert" locale) included in the argument. It is a marvelous testament to Tom Doak's talent and skill to produce such amazing new courses and I for one, am so much richer in golf experience and pleasure for it.


PS* I hope to retain a warm welcome there as well.

[Gene Greco]

    This award and it's title should perpetually go to The Bridge, Bridgehampton, LI. yet most interestingly, Matt has deigned it an "important" course years back. Guess the criteria in Matt's world has changed somewhat.

   Of course, it would be far from me to question any "giant of golf journalism". I supposed that's why no question should be made of "giving the edge to Ballyneal over Sandhills," especially with a decade comparison fresh in the mental notebook. After all, not just any self-proclaimed rankings god can make just any call, can they?

   If I recall correctly, Mr. Ward was promising to illuminate just why or how BN "earns" that edge, but alas, I've done a search and just can't find it.....too bad for the rest of us who looked forward to such a spirited review.

    For the record, I've played  Sebonack, Ballyneal and Sand Hills, all inside a 3mos. span and while dutifully impressed with Tom Doak's spectacular and enlightening efforts, I have a hard time seeing Sand Hills anywhere otherhan at the top of such a grouping. I'll go one step farther and add that given 10 rounds, I'd split them up: 5 SHGC; 3 SGC; 2 BN. Has anyone else here played all three (or even Sand Hills and BN in any short time time) and how would they split 10 among them?

   I have no problem agreeing as well as endorsing the fact that BN is indeed a fine new addition to the scene and that it will become a successful private club for it's genuinely nice owner & members, but I'm going to be the iconoclast here and vote against annointing it to be the "god-given gift to the GCA crowd." I know of a few others around this place who think the same and some have even given it a delicately appropriate nick-name, but they perhaps, are more diplomatic than me and choose to remain in the background.
Sebonack is better IMHO and Pac. Dunes & Barnbougle (and maybe even St. Andrews Beach & Cape Kidnappers, though I've not seen them yet) are definitely better Doak designs.
It's too late tonight for me to go much further, but I do stand ready to make fully-detailed explanations and comparisons if others are willing to stand up and do the same.

   

John:

     What is frustrating to Steve and a couple of others is they feel limited by what they can say with regard to Ballyneal due to its "Sacred Cow" status here on GCA. I know I do. However, I have removed myself from the discussion for the same reasons you have.  However, Steve should feel free to express his likes and dislikes of the course without feeling as if he'll hang from the gallows.

As has been mentioned before by others more esteemed than I, this stifles true architectural analysis of the course. This site is devoted to frank commentary of golf course architecture and it hasn't been done with regard to BN.

And no course is above criticism.

[Adam_Messix]

To those who have wanted to express their issues with Ballyneal I have one question, Where's the Beef?  

I have heard this argument a few times that Ballyneal is good but not THAT good, then the question is WHY?  I'm curious, perhaps I'm missing something.  The educational component is why I enjoy reading golf club atlas so much.

As an aside, I played Sebonack, Ballyneal, and Sand Hills all for the first time and all within a two week period and have a hard time saying which one is better.  There are so many thing to like about all of them, and little to criticize.  

First of all, we need to take the conditioning of Ballyneal out of the question as there was not the effort to make it look mature on opening day as there was at Sebonack and Sand Hills has an eleven year advantage on both.

The other thing is that all of these courses rely so much on wind that I really think I need to see all of these courses in varied wind directions and velocities before I can make a complete assessment.  

I took the opportunity to "Ran Play" the three courses in a round robin and the only conclusion I came up with is that Sand Hills has the best opening hole of the three as it won in 19 holes against both.  The other conclusion I could come up with is that the 2nd hole at Sebonack is the best hole of the combined three courses, from the walk up to the tee from one green to the overall strategy of the hole, to a great green, what a hole.  

[Matt_Ward]

Steve Lapper:

You must have skipped over my previous post to cherry pick what you wanted to illuminate.

I disclosed the fact that my one and only time at Sand Hills came ten years ago (45 holes in one day). I don't doubt that a second visit might shed some additional light and possible change of mind in regards to my feelings now (e.g. Ballyneal v Sand Hills).

I still like The Bridge but not at the same level as I originally did. Why? Simple. I played the place a few times and I erred in elevating it as high as I did.

Geeze Steve -- since you don't make any errors please excuse me for being human.

Another thing -- please refrain from sucb BS sarcasm ("giant of journalism") -- is that supposed to be your claim to fame in throwing invective at people? I would think a class person like yourself would understand that. Forgive me for for error in believing such a thing.

I've shared my comments on what I like about Ballyneal and I did mention the time differential with my thoughts on Sand Hills. Baiting me will not advance the discussion. I'm willing to amend my thinking if and when I return to Sand Hills but my memory on holes / courses played is quite good -- and I still see Ballyneal as the better choice for me.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

    I didn't cherry-pick" as you suggested. I just went back to your earlier posts on the subject and illuminated several of your presented facts. Of course it's my take on yours, thus subject to qualitative review, not quantatative. If you recall, we debated exactly what you experienced on your first (and only) 45 hole day at Sand Hills.

   Given your admission of re-measure on The Bridge, I'll laude you on seeing the light of day there. It's one gigantic waste of a potentially great property and I'll leave it at that. We may all be human, but coaxing a change of opinion from you might well be described as one of the 10 hardest things to do on GCA.

   As for the "BS sarcasm," let's not forget that you publish a yearly ranking of courses in our home state but do not publish the quantatative data or process behind your results. Your represent it as one of the definitive measures of NJ golf, but we both know that it includes a great deal of personal opinion and taste. By definition, you hold yourself up to certain journalistic standards but challenge those every time your opinion takes precedent, thus I'd say you've laid yourself bare to some measure of bare knuckles criticism. I apologize if you feel it's elevated to a level of unwarranted invective, but I assure you that sarcasm remains a form of humor and not of outright ugliness.

   On the "baiting" charge, c'mon Matt....that's a page out of your playbook. You fueled the BN v. SH challenge a long time back by making a quick and brief, yet definitive call and did nothing meaningful to substantiate it. I was calling you out on your 10yr memory (hell... at 49, I have problems remembering where I was last week! ) I was only seeking your edification now and it appears that I've got it. BN is a better choice for "you" and I will go to my grave defending yours ,and other's right to "your personal" opinion(s). . For me it'll be Sand Hills until BN builds another 100 holes and reaches the scale and drama of Nebraska.

    You are a knowledgable guy who usually relishes a debate and by definition, that means at least a two-way discussion. Bring it on!!

A Heatlhy & Happy New Years to you and yours.

S

[John Kirk]

Steve/Gene,

Thanks for your nice responses.  I try not to stifle critical analysis of Ballyneal.  But I can see how the praise and adulation tends to drown out any serious discussion.

Generally, the "sacred cows" here on GCA are courses that people dearly want to play, but nobody wants to piss off the GCA members who are also members at those clubs.  If we had a couple Augusta National members, there wouldn't nearly be as much squawking about the changes.

In my experience, playing a course once is not a reliable indicator of whether or not I will eventually love that course.  I have fallen in lust for a golf course at first glance four times:

Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
Merion (East)
Royal Dornoch
Bandon Dunes

Everything else was overrated the first time around.  I played Prairie Dunes for the first time this fall.  Four rounds.

First round impression:  "Overrated.  Let's play it again."
Second round:  "Well...  Let's play it again."
Third round:  "Gee, I liked it more.  Let's play it again."
Fourth round:  "Can we play it again?"

Now I was pretty frank and honest with my host, and shared my opinions here.  I probably seemed disappointed, and may have hurt my chances of being invited again.

I agree with Gene that Steve should have no qualms arguing the merits of the two courses.  I think he'd make a better argument if he played Ballyneal a couple more times, especially with the improved green speeds we saw at the end of the year.  Hopefully others will participate.  It's a great comparison.  Although the two are similarly situated in sand dunes, they are really different.  I am getting fired up about playing golf just thinking about these great places.  I haven't played much lately.

Hey, Ward!  Sebonack better than Ballyneal?  C'mon!

[Jim Franklin]

Steve -

I have not played Sebonack, but played Sand Hills and Ballyneal and would split my rounds 5 and 5.

Also, I have a good friend and client that has played Friars Head and The Bridge and prefers The Bridge. He is a 2 handicap. I have not played The Bridge so I cannot comment.

[cary lichtenstein]

Steve -

I have not played Sebonack, but played Sand Hills and Ballyneal and would split my rounds 5 and 5.

Also, I have a good friend and client that has played Friars Head and The Bridge and prefers The Bridge. He is a 2 handicap. I have not played The Bridge so I cannot comment.

I'm surprised that anyone would like the Bridge better than Friar's Head but I played with a 3 handicap and he liked the Bridge better also. I thought he was nuts but I guess it fit his eye or game or both better.

[Steve Lapper]

Jim & Cary,

    Some guys like Kincade over Cezanne...no accounting for taste...and some like Trump over Oakmont...go figure . It's a well known fact that many, many low handicaps haven't a clue about the intrinsic architecture of what lies in front of them (i.e just using the elite subset titled the PGA Tour is living proof of that)

     Seriously though, The Bridge is wonderful if you like the repetitive monotony of long uphill/downhill schlogs, with multiple two tier greens and lots of fairway mounding.

  John,
   
      You make an excellent point. Ballyneal is most certainly worth further play and re-examination and I hope to be able to accomplish that in the coming season(s) . While my first impressions did involve considerable observation and thought, multiple plays definitely provide the very best platform from which to form a valid opinion or create any judgement.

[Jim Franklin]

Steve -

You make a very valid point regarding low handicaps and taste.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve Lapper:

Before this thread dissolves into more of the same that other threads have morphed into -- how about a mea culpa from you on starting with the BS sarcasm -- "the giant of journalism" tag is something a class person would avoid throwing into the mixture. I mean Steve -- you are a class guy right -- or am I in error on that too?

I have no issue with people seeing things differently from me. It's America and people can say what they wish. I don't go on the attack with ridicule. I simply lay out my opinion.

I have played Sand Hills -- I also ADMITTED FOR THE UPTEEEEENTH my first and only visit thus far took place 10 years ago and I cleary well might indeed change my mind with another visit. Get it Steve - people can change their minds. What a novel idea.

Regarding my opinions I am one of the few on GCA who has provided in great detail my opinions on a range of courses over the years. You may have me confused with others who fail to be completely open because they assemble such opinions with the desire to secure future playing opportunities. I don't concern myself with that issue to the exclusion of all others.

In regards to the publishing of the best in Jersey it's very simple -- it's my take on what's the best in the state. End of story. I've played and seen everything worth a lick in the Garden State and people are free to disagree. My sampling includes everything worth a salt in playing and takes in a time frame that goes back at least 30+ years. I've included the criteria used and given the nature of how certain courses do improve and how others fall behind I make it a point to state one man's perspective. There is no doubt it's my opinion -- and it's stated that way upfront for all to see and agree or disagree either partially or totally.

Hey Steve -- guess what -- any rankings / ratings will have a good deal of personal taste and opinion. This isn't rocket science stuff partner. The issue is whether the person doing such an assessment can keep an open mind to the changing nature of what is happening. On that front, I am more than prepared to layout what I see is happening that is a benefit to those who are passionate about golf and course design.

I challenge people when they take issue with me simply from second or third hand evidence (photos or third hand comments or being a devoted groupie who can't see beyond a previous course when a more current one is being discussed, etc, etc.). This often happens when people throw the big blanket of negativity over anything that Nicklaus, Rees Jones or Tom Fazio does.

In regards to the outline on BN and Sand Hills I outlined my comments in a good bit of detail. It may not have been at the level you insist upon -- but I did state my feelings clearly. I also believe -- that a review from ten years ago will need to be updated for the purpose in being as accurate as possible. But, keep in mind this Steve -- I disclosed the time frame when I played Sand Hills -- it's something others often fail to include here on this site.

Happy New Year to you & yours ...




 

[George Pazin]

I have no issue with people seeing things differently from me. It's America and people can say what they wish. I don't go on the attack with ridicule. I simply lay out my opinion.

 

[Mark_F]

There seems to be a similar reaction to Ballyneal as there was with my home club, St Andrews Beach.

It appears to me that the Doak courses that are obviously photogenic - Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle - nobody really questions, but the ones without such elements have perhaps more craft and ingenuity that people miss?

For instance, I am sure I have seen it mentioned that people say the third at Ballyneal may not be all that flash - but looking at Ran's profile, with the talk of the differing options for that left side pin, how could this be so?

The 12th and 14th there have mean craving to see them just from the description, yet one or both of them have been glossed over a little bit too?

Maybe Doak's architecture is just too subtle for many, but it's pretty hard to dismiss something in locations as the three above?

Perhaps it is similar to the County Down/Portrush situation. I don't see how there is any way Portrush could ever be compared to County Down, let alone surpass it, as some people rank it, because it doesn't have the scale, beauty or drama of County Down, for one - but there are those who think it is better.

Because of the craftsmanship and guile involved, perhaps?

[George Pazin]

Mark, that is a terrific post, but one that is maybe too deep and deserves a thread of its own. I've been trying (and I think failing, by the reaction) to make the case for subtlety for quite awhile now, but it's obviously really hard to put into words on a website.

I wish you better luck than I've had.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

   If you read my reply, I called sarcasm a form of humor. Sorry if it offended you and wasn't meant to be any personal attack. You have intoned frequently here about both your journalist role and your personal taste. I recognize opinion and defend the right to it, just don't mix it up with the responsibilities of objective reporting.

    As for the Jersey ranking lists, you've indeed played most everything in the state and I do respect your opinion, but again, please don't confuse your opinion (and the opinion of just a very few, some of whom don't even live in or play more than occasionally in the state) with some form of objective or quantatative and exhaustive review. I'd cite your incomplete review of Neshanic (and seemingly 1X visit as an example...it's heads and tails, according to a vast majority of experienced NJ public golfers to many other tracks you likely have seen more frequently).  You cited the inconsistency of conditioning as I recall and that proved to be a very short time and temporary problem that has long since been addressed. Doesn't the same standard apply to BN? One man's opinion doesn't convert into any journalistic validity and that's what I take issue with. I hear ya paadner (sic) but you'll just have to consider me your "sparring" paadner (sic).

   Finally, I beg to differ with your claim that "you outlined your comments in a bit of detail" re: Sand Hills v. Ballyneal. Go back to that spread and you'll see that the descriptions of BN are indeed thorough, but any detailed comparison is absent, save for some of our PM's.

    Maybe it's because of the width of your purview,the assertiveness of your opinions, or the platform you utilize that I hold you to a slightly higher standard than others here who rely on shallow observation, access agendas, or blanket negativity towards many of the neo-formulaic archies. No question you are braver and more informed than them. Maybe I'm wrong for holding you to such, but the sheer force of your on-line personality invites it.

     As for whether or not I am a classy guy, only my friends, peers or enemies can make that call, but I do know that my daughters think so and their's is the only opinion that matters to me .

     

[Mark_F]

I'm not having any more luck than you, George.

I have been trying for ages to figure out my thoughts on this matter too...

[Matt_Ward]

Steve --

When you say sarcasm as a form of humor try to include a smiley face after such an effort because it's very easy for others to see it from another direction. Try to remember the Stephen Covey line, "Seek to understand before being understood."

You also said, "don't mix it up with the responsibilities of objective reporting."

Guess what partner -- I never did.

For instance -- I simply said AGAIN that my assessment of Jersey courses is MY OPINION not fact. Based upon the exhaustive research I have done from 30+ years and from keeping up to date on what is happening now. People are free to disagree -- but I would hope those who do put it a comparable amount of legwork before exercising their right to chastise me that my opinion is off-based.

Allow me to point out that I have now played Neshanic roughly 4 times. In my review -- if you care to read the other elements which you conveniently left out in your existing reply -- I also mentioned that the nature of the holes, while good, is nothing more than slightly above average -- especially when compared to what Hurdzan / Fry have done with other public efforts here in Jersey (see Sand Barrens).

My database also goes far beyond the "average" public player in the state. The idea you throw forward that my assessment of Neshanic is simply based upon conditioning is not accurate and the review speaks to it. Again, Steve, try to go beyond the simple cherry picking of one statement and read the ENTIRE account. Trust me -- it might enlighten you to the whole story. I have a good deal of respect for what Neshanic Valley is about and I salute Somerset County for their efforts to expand another layout for the public to play but the totality of first rate public courses is quite deep and it may behoove you to play them or return for another round.

I also will say this again I made comments on Ballyneal in a thorough fashion -- I also made some additional comments on Sand Hills and I did DISCLOSE in total ACCURACY -- THE TIME FRAME ON WHEN I LAST PLAYED THE COURSE AND THAT IT WOULD LIKELY REQUIRE ME TO RETURN AND SEE IF MY EXISTING STATEMENTS STILL STAND UP. NEED I SAY MORE AGAIN & AGAIN & AGAIN.

Few people here on GCA go to that extreme to provide a total accounting of their opinions based on when they actually played a course and I also included the proviso that since courses do change it's more than fair to say my conclusions may need adjustment if warranted. I am human - and people can change their minds.

I am more than happy to engage in a no-holds barred robust debate on any course I play and I believe class people like yourself and others will add to that discussion with your own
comments -- whether they agree or disagree with mine.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Did you have more than 3 awards?

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

It is hard to like a guy who has played 1,000+ courses, can shoot par and hit the ball 350 yards, possesses a near photographic memory when it comes to courses and features, communicates well, makes a living form the game we all love, and does not feel the need to patronize.  Posing strong opinions assertively, specially if they run counter to the zeitgeist, makes that person even more intolerable.  It even gets worse when he can demonstrate his basis with clarity and specificity.

If I was into giving awards, you would get one for candor and diligence.  Keep up the good work, "pardner".    

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Yes, in fact I do, however, because of a desire to be sidetracked with this incessant argument about other matters I have not been able to post others.

*****

Best State for Quality and Affordable Public Golf ...

The envelope please --

COLORADO

This isn't really breaking news because I have stated this previously on a host of courses I have described over the last number of months.

It amazes me when you see the range and diversity of what one can play in Colorado and best of all -- the fees charged are within the means of nearly all wallet sizes -although one or two might require a bit of an effort (see Norman's Red Sky).

In addition, you have a broad range of architects who have brought forward some really unique and fun places to play.

Among those of note in no particular order of preference ...

Lakota Canyon Ranch (Jim Engh) - New Castle
Red Sky Ranch / Norman (Greg Norman) - Wolcott
Devil's Thumb (Rick Phelps) - Delta
Antler Creek (Rick Phelps) - Falcon
Bear Dance (combo of different people) - Larkspur
Highland Meadows (Art Schaupeter) - Windsor
Riverdale / Dunes (Pete Dye) - Brighton
Vista Ridge (Jay Moorish) - Erie
Murphy Creek (Ken Kavanaugh) - Aurora
Haymaker (Keith Foster) - Steamboat Springs
The Ridge at Castle Pines North (Tom Weiskopf) - Castle Pines
GC at Redlands Mesa (Jim Engh) - Grand Junction
Walking Stick - Pueblo
Raven GC Three Peaks (Hurdzan/Fry w Lehman) - Silverthorne
Eagle Ranch (Palmer/Seay) - Eagle

I might have left a few others but all in all -- Colorado can entertain the passionate golfer without siphoning a mega amount of $$ out of one's pocket.


The 2006 A-Ward for Best Practice Facility (Public) ...

The envelope please ...

BANDON DUNES GOLF RESORT

There are plenty of worthy candidates for such an award but when you combine stellar golf included with the practice category I can't see any that can touch what Bandon indeed offers.

There are more practice greens and targets than one can possibly imagine. The wind direction can also be factored into whatever situation a player might wish to prepare for prior to any round played.

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