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Michael Dugger

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Dismal River Photo Tour
« on: December 21, 2006, 10:59:30 PM »
Per the requests of contributors on another thread, below is a photo tour of Dismal River. The photo shoot was made available a few months ago, on this very website, by a member of the Nicklaus Design Group.  Of course, additional information on the club can be found at http://www.dismalriver.com/Home.aspx

or

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/dismalriver/

I do not know the hole numbers well enough to label each of them, but I think they are mostly in order.......

First, the routing


















































































« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 04:52:26 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Scott Szabo

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2006, 11:29:43 PM »
Michael,

Thanks for the post.  Nice to see a little of what we keep hearing about here.

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jim Nugent

Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 02:33:44 AM »
Cool pictures.  What do you think of the course?  

Michael Dugger

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 02:45:53 AM »
Are you asking me, Jim?  I haven't played it so what do I know.  From what I see it looks okay....above average?  I really like the looks of that 5th hole, a one-shotter uphill to a wild saddle green.  It looks very tough.  I also think one of the par fives looks pretty wild....it is on the back.

But that's just my two bits.  I'd love to get out there and play a round.  Then get back to ya.    ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 04:58:38 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mark_F

Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 03:37:44 AM »
For a course that is trying to appear as if it was just there, the greens look very manufactured and designed.

Love the name of the course, though.  :)

Greg Beaulieu

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 07:43:10 AM »
For a course that is trying to appear as if it was just there, the greens look very manufactured and designed.

Agreed.

Quote
Love the name of the course, though.  :)

What an awful name for anything that is supposed to be enjoyable.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 07:43:38 AM »
Pics look great to me.
I'd love to hear from anyone who has played it . . .

-Ted

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 09:32:11 AM »
Is that a bunker in the green? I mean if it is, that has got to be the craziest green I've ever seen.

Looks like the bunkers could be easy to maintain. Just forget about them don't you?



Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 09:49:49 AM »
Looks to me as if some bits resemble a nice old quirky links, but theres a bit too much evidence that it was done with a bulldozer.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

PThomas

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 10:10:14 AM »
Is that a bunker in the green? I mean if it is, that has got to be the craziest green I've ever seen.

Looks like the bunkers could be easy to maintain. Just forget about them don't you?




Marc - yes it is...that green is the subject of my separate thread...

course yardages : 7624, 6649, 5148...good idea to bring your A game there!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

jeffwarne

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 10:13:11 AM »
If the archtect of this course had a last name other than Nicklaus, Jones, or Fazio......

The responses to these pictures would be glowingly positive.

I know they're only pictures, and I haven't played there, but if those pictures don't leave you wanting to play there and experience it for yourself, you definitely aren't approaching evaluation of this course with an open mind.
I see some fascinating and unusual greensites at the least.


"Bad lies in hazards"? Isn't that an oxymoron?
Besides the course was hardly even open yet-you've got to grow the grass in before you can trim it for playability and asthetics.
Courses used to take years to mature, now judgements are passed before they're even open.
Course always soften over time as traffic solves some playability issues and others are addressed as they come up

"Above average"? Compared to what, Sand Hills?

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 10:17:04 AM »
Michael,
    Thanks for putting the pix together. Looks interesting.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

jeffwarne

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2006, 10:20:32 AM »
Shivas
A lot of those roads may be for access/construction reasons and may go away as traffic patterns for play and maintenance access patterns are established.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2006, 10:48:15 AM »
When I played it the turf had been seriously beautified resulting in serious growth of the surrounds and bunker brows.

Mr. Warne's assumption that because Jack's name is on it predisposes people here not to like it, is poopycock. Everyone here, knows Chris Cochran did the heavy lifting and I was personally anxious to enjoy my round. The first problem was the distances. Knowing of the difficult nature of the course I was resolved to play it short. However, 5200 yards is too short.

On the day we played the wind was magnificiant. A steady 20-25 with gusts to 35. In those conditions, and from the 6600 yard tees, the course was much narrower than pictured or on both calm days.  Also, the flatness of pictures doesn't illustrate how many times the caddy needed to go ahead and stand on the top of one of the mounds to show the line to the next shot. Take the first hole as an example. Drive between the bunkers and you're left with a blind second.  Perhaps a herculean drive passed the right side bunker would allow for a glimpse of the green, I don't know and am sure I will never know.


Hitting marginal shots is one thing, but watching ones ball boundng down the fairway, never to be seen again, is another. The turns happen quickly and are perhaps too sharp for the windy nature of the region.

As I originally stated after playing the course, it is a step in the right direction for team Jack. But it seems to lack the justifications for features and their severity.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2006, 11:04:33 AM »

On the day we played the wind was magnificiant. A steady 20-25 with gusts to 35. In those conditions, and from the 6600 yard tees, the course was much narrower than pictured or on both calm days.  Also, the flatness of pictures doesn't illustrate how many times the caddy needed to go ahead and stand on the top of one of the mounds to show the line to the next shot. Take the first hole as an example. Drive between the bunkers and you're left with a blind second.  Perhaps a herculean drive passed the right side bunker would allow for a glimpse of the green, I don't know and am sure I will never know.



Adam,

Do you think the members are going to need caddies to tell them where to hit the ball.  This is a non-problem and actually a good thing.

jeffwarne

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2006, 11:17:46 AM »
Adam,
"Everyone here knows Chris Cochran did the heavy lifting"
By "here" do you mean GCA or Dismal River?

On your comment on the distances-were 5200 and 6600 your only choices?


I take it you did not like the course-Fair enough.
You were "anxious to enjoy your round" and fairly evaluated the course after playing it.
I and many others may have the exact same reaction after playing. I hope I get the opportunity.

And Adam, if you didn't like the course, how would that be a step in the right direction?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jordan Wall

Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2006, 11:50:46 AM »
That is a Nicklaus course :o


Very cool Michael, thank you.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2006, 11:54:01 AM »
The one thing that I see when looking at the pictures is that other holes come into view when playing a particular hole, and I don't remember that being the case too often at Sand Hills or Ballyneal, other courses of its kind.

Not being picky at all, just posting a statement.

Maybe the course is in the flatter portion of the sand hills or maybe Nicklaus wasn't concerned with this at all.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2006, 12:09:11 PM »
Adam,
"Everyone here knows Chris Cochran did the heavy lifting"
By "here" do you mean GCA or Dismal River? Here on GCA

On your comment on the distances-were 5200 and 6600 your only choices? No, I could've played it at 7600. Other than that, Yes, it was the only choice. The teeing grounds are spread out like no other course I can recall.


I take it you did not like the course-Fair enough.
You were "anxious to enjoy your round" and fairly evaluated the course after playing it.
I and many others may have the exact same reaction after playing. I hope I get the opportunity.

And Adam, if you didn't like the course, how would that be a step in the right direction?
It's a step in the right direction because there is no reliance on trees and water. Just the ground and elements. Improvement should come when the justificaton for the feature shaping enhances what's already there and creates lines of play that would allow Granny to get around.
My opinion is that ths will be a commercial success. Why? Because there is a large enough market share, (as Jack eluded to in his promos) who will be enamored by the glitz of the name, the difficulty, and the other amenities offered. Does that make it good or bad? No, just not in the world class of it's nearest neighbor.


J.B. The scale of the place is rather large and I suspect members would still need a guiding hand to ascertain the proper line.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 12:09:39 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

George Pazin

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2006, 12:09:28 PM »
I'd love to have some of the people saying it looks obviously manufactured sit down with the people who built it to compare observations with reality.

Apart from the dramatically obvious, like spectator mounds or railroad ties, I personally have never been able to see very well what's manufactured and what isn't.

Thanks for posting the photos.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2006, 12:24:54 PM »
George, In this case, I suspct those who haven't been there and are just judging from pictures, are in err as to what they think is manufactured. Surely the greens are, but the severity of most of the slopes is natural. It may have been better melted down. If for no other reason than safety since carts will be the dominate mode of traversing the property.

One question I have for Chris, or if Jim Lipe could relay it to Chris, is why, with all that room, did they place the cart path behind the first green, where someone playing a later hole (#5 or #10?) turns the sharp corner only to find themselves within earshot of the first green?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kirk Gill

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2006, 01:52:46 PM »
For what it's worth, these pictures just make me want to get out and play !  The scale of the course, the ruggedness of it, the untamed quality is has looks like they would be a lot of fun to traverse, even if I did have to bring a case of balls with me..........

Some of the responses to this course remind me of a comment my wife made to me once about movie critics - "I think they just see too many movies."
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Michael Dugger

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2006, 02:11:20 PM »
"Bad lies in hazards"? Isn't that an oxymoron?
Besides the course was hardly even open yet-you've got to grow the grass in before you can trim it for playability and asthetics.

Pat Mucci will  be along in a while to crucify you for saying this. ;)

"Above average"? Compared to what, Sand Hills?


Yea, Above average on the Doak scale.  a six or seven....eight tops
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RDecker

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2006, 07:08:52 PM »
That windmill is cool...like Steinbeck meets C.B. Mac.

Tim Pitner

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Re:Dismal River Photo Tour
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2006, 07:37:31 PM »


The bunkers on the far left of this hole don't look right to me--they're well into the native area and seem superfluous.  

I'm sure I'll get criticized for being anti-Nicklaus or pro-Doak or for never having played the course, but I'll say it anyway--from these photos, Dismal doesn't look quite as aesthetically pleasing to my eye as Ballyneal.  I haven't totally put my finger on it yet--the cart parths don't help.  


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