Proposed changes to #2&3 at Alpine CC-Tillie '28

[NAF]

As some of you here have played my home course,  Alpine CC in Demarest NJ (Tillie 1928), I thought I would update on some changes that are being proposed to the second and third holes.  I view them as two of the weaker holes on the
course so I don't mind the change and the club is not using the word restoration but there is some good, bad and ugly in here..

[Matt_Ward]

NAF:

Good report.

My understanding is that Mark Mungeam will be doing the work.

The issue for Alpine goes beyond the 2nd and 3rd holes -- which I agree do need attention. The remedies you've outlined look at face value to be a good improvement -- minus the silly waterfall concept.

Alpine needs to deal with the 10th hole -- yes, I know it's loved by many, but the quirk of the hill, in my opinion, really detracts from fine play. The course needs a tad more length but only in spots. A good example -- why not extend the 11th hole and play the 12th as an uphill par-3? I never really liked the short par-4 12th because you have enough of them on the back side already. Extending the 11th hole about 50 yards would make for an interesting hole, add a much needed long par-4 on that side, and give you the kind of variety with the 12th playing as par-3. Par for the course would drop from 72 to 71. No big deal.

Also, many of the bunkers need to be brought back to the Tillie concept -- you mentioned Fenway and I quite agree. Many of the bunkers at Alpine are nothing more than holes in the ground. A quick visit to Fenway or Winged Foot would be an eye-opener for club leadership.

I have been told the double-tiered nature of the 6th hole will be changed. I don't agree with this because it certainly is a strong hole. Be most interesting to see what the remedy is. I was also told the "new" 17th will be lengthened and the green changed / moved to accomodate more length and provide a more realistic target.

The other aspect for Alpine is cutting down some of the excess lumber you find on the course. The course needs more light to hit the course and for different angles to come into play. Too many trees have forced a "bowling alley" type of play. Also, would be most helpful if someone SHUT DOWN all the H20 that is applied to the course. Alpine uses too much water and the nature of the "bounce" is really not a part of the game when playing there. A firmer surface would really elevate the nature and standing of the course.

Noel, you are quite right about the qualities of Alpine. Yes, no doubt, a bit of polishing would go a long way in moving Alpine up to the higher echelon of courses in the Garden State. Mungeam has a major challenge because the inherent qualities that Tillie produced are clearly there but a bit of 21st century re-touching will go a long way in giving the club the kind of product that has been for far too long in the background. We shall see.

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF & Matt Ward,

I'm one of the few who remember Alpine before it had a sprinkler system, and balls hit in the left rough would end up in the right rough.

NAF,

I would be cautious about any change, as it always seems to precipitate the execution of the domino theory.

I sense that the changes are finalized such that any conversation on the subject is useless.

I would ask, why not eliminate the artificial pond on # 3 and return it to its original form ?  Why create all this work when the simple solution is the elimination of an artificial feature built by some green committee years ago ?  The construction of a new/old back tee seems simple and inexpensive.

I suspect, that a RESTORATION is not about to happen at Alpine, that the course will be altered in the name of modernization, and to make it "easier" for the members,  the begining of a trend that will squeeze the distinctive life out of the golf course.  

AW Tillinghast will come to be known as RPM Tillinghast.

[Paul Turner]

NAF

Have you seen the original plans yet?

Matt

The 11th green is one of the best on the course, I wouldn't sacrifice it.  And turning the 12th into a par 3 would just result in a new par 3 that's somewhat similar to two of the current par 3s: 5th and 8th, i.e. big drop off into trouble on the right.

[NAF]

Paul, Pat, Matt

Have not seen the plans..I will eventually at some stage. I think that Pat may be on to something and this won't be in the name of making the course easier but in providing a championship course under the guise of making it easier for the average member.  The average member at Alpine plays from the white tees at 6400 yds and probably struggles to break 85..I would surmize they won't stop after 2/3 and work on some of the other holes..I already know that greens #2,5,8 and 14 have been changed from originals and #6 with the two tiered green would be next on the docket for extinction.

Alpine is a challenging course as you know already, I would rather they work on the look (bunkering) and clearing trees first but I bet they rather woo low handicapers there from the new back tees at 6900+ and here about them struggling to break 78 or so in order to have a "man-sized course" in the words of Tillie. That way the members can brag how tough Alpine is and for what so we can have US Open Qualifying there?  Pat is right, it won't be a restoration and eventually all that will be left of Tillie is the routing.  Perhaps that is already the truth.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

No doubt that "change" can be a very iffy proposition. I only wish the powers-that-be at Alpine would really have someone who truly understood the Tillie design genius and return to that. Visiting WF, Fenway or Quaker would not hurt in furthering the knowledge issue.

Alpine is geared more towards the "country club" first mentality and the golf course second. Cutting back H20 usage and pruning a good number of trees would be a major plus for the course. Unfortunately, the "green is golden" mentality is a tough one to beat since many people there, as well as at other clubs across the USA, are more concerned with "how a course looks" rather than "how it plays."

The individual course changes are a question that can be debated. I believe the 11th and 12th could be altered to give a better combo of holes than what exists today.

I wish Alpine well because the layout could easily be among the finest 10-15 courses in the state.

Paul:

I don't doubt the qualities of the 11th green -- but it can be replicated. Adding length there and having a companion long par-4 on the back side besides #13.

Playing the par-3 12th hole as a par-3 would make for a better overall combination of holes on that side. Just think of the pacing of different holes. Yes, the trouble would be on the right again but so what? I can name a nume of other courses where the par-3's are somewhat similar in strategic value but vary in length. I would say it should be a bit different in overall length compared to the short 5th and the mid-length par-3 8th. How about the 12th playing about 230 yards or thereabouts?

[NAF]

Paul, Pat, Matt

Have not seen the plans..I will eventually at some stage. I think that Pat may be on to something and this won't be in the name of making the course easier but in providing a championship course under the guise of making it easier for the average member.  The average member at Alpine plays from the white tees at 6400 yds and probably struggles to break 85..I would surmize they won't stop after 2/3 and work on some of the other holes..I already know that greens #2,5,8 and 14 have been changed from originals .
Alpine is a challenging course as you know already, I would rather they work on the look (bunkering) and clearing trees first but I bet they rather woo low handicapers there from the new back tees at 6900+ and here about them struggling to break 78 or so in order to have a "man-sized course" in the words of Tillie. That way the members can brag how tough Alpine is and for what so we can have US Open Qualifying there?  Pat is right, it won't be a restoration and eventually all that will be left of Tillie is the routing.  Perhaps that is already the truth.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Noel
The Tillinghast Association can not be pleased, have they chimed in to protect his work?

[NAF]

Tom Macwood,

I don't see how anyone reading the literature sent out would object.  It says they are being true to Tillie's designs which may be true ex the waterfall.  I just guess it is the beginning of more changes..I would have to see the original plans before making judgement but after rereading the literature they are calling this a restoration.

[Matt_Ward]

NAF:

I think the bigger issue for clubs such as Alpine is whether the genesis of such places is effected by being a "country club" rather than a "golf club."

I believe the desire of the club leadership at Apine is well intentioned but the focus of the "country club" aspect (i.e. new clubhouse and all the fanfare attached to it) can often dominate the landscape and the priorities of the golf course become less so.

Clearly, one cannot place labels that always work this way but from my experiences it's clear that "country clubs" see their mission / purpose in far different ways than many "golf clubs." The situation is not hard and fast always but I believ does have some merit.

I only hope that Alpine understands that the golf course is the driving engine for the facility -- it is the dog not the tail.