[ForkaB]

I'm finding it hard to get my head around this one.

To me the "quiet moments" on a golf course relate to those places where you feel compelled to stop, look and listen to your heart.  Places like the 11th tee at the Old Course, the 2nd shot to the 8th at Pebble Beach, the 1st green at NGLA, etc.  This thread seems to relate them to what I would call the boring moments of golf--the long walks between some greens and next tees, playing the linking flat holes on an otherwise interesting humpy-bumpy course.

My quiet moments at Pacific Dunes were almost all on the early and late holes--1 and 2 and 16-18.  I described them then as Painswickian, and I'll stand by that!  The middle of the course is a bit of a blur to me, and I always have to google up a routing diagram before I can remember which hole is which.  Those are not "quiet" moments for me....

[Robert_Walker]

The 14th green to the fifteenth tee walk at Friar's Head is the quiet moment I think of. There is a one person stair up and throught the dune that requires a good bit of concentration, and provides the player with a sense of anticipation at the two vistas he ia about to encounter.
The first is when he turns around and looks back to the fourteenth tee, and the next is the fifteenth hole beyond.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

With today's equipment, nobody hits a duck hook anymore  

I guess you're right, mine is more of a smothered pull hook.  But it quacks like a duck!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

That is a point that I have not articulated before but have searched for in discussing my love for Pac Dunes. Macrihanish has it as does Sand Hills. There are a number of courses that have it in stretches but those have it from begining to end. I wish I had walked The Concession for one might find it there. I doubt I will get to play there enough to confirm it one way or the other. I have always looked for that sort of feeling at a course. It is special and so very noteworthy.

[JohnV]

I think that #9 at Bandon Dunes is similarly a quiet moment.  After the excitement of 4-8, 9 provides a nice interlude before heading back to the ocean.

Interestingly, many of the holes that have been criticized the most as being weak on this site are the ones that can be looked at as the quiet moments.  A lot of us can learn something from Bill Coore which shouldn't come as a surprise.

Can the 18th hole be one of those "quiet moments"?  For example, after the adrenaline rush of 15-17 at Cypress Point, could the 18th be an appropriate quiet finish that is needed?

[Larry_Keltto]

I'm not a musician, but I think of golf courses as being like works of music. Great musical pieces give the listener variations in dynamics and tempo, and do so within a coherent theme. So the "quiet moments" descriptor works for me--comparable to pianissimo and/or andante.

[TEPaul]

Ran:

Interesting first post there about what Coore feels about Pacific Dunes.

Perhaps more than any other architect I know, the things Bill Coore is apt to say about anything architectural makes me, at least, step back and wonder where he's coming from or what it is he really means. I'm not saying at all that he's impossible to understand, just that I feel some of the things he does say needs to be given some serious consideration on the part of those he says it too.

We were all out there at that archipalooza as PD's was opening. Remember?

I saw Bill Coore on the putting green and he'd been there for a day and had played Pac Dunes. I asked him what he thought of it, and he said it's just so different? So I asked him what he meant by that exactly and he just said it was so different. So what was I supposed to do ask him again what he meant exactly by so different?

But I think a year or so later I did ask him what the hell he meant by so different and I think he said he thought it was a good thing for a course to be really different, at the very least because "difference" in golf architecture is sort of the life's blood of the entire art form and game. Anything other than that or some attempt to go down some road of similarity or standardization within the art form would be sort of going in the direction of a tennis court, so to speak---eg similarity or standardization.

But I'm not certain of that because I have been to at least one site under construction where Bill tried to refuse to get out of the car he was so apparently shocked.

So, who knows what he ever really means by the things he's apt to say. All I can say is the things he does say fascinate me far more than the things any other architect I know says about architecture with the possible exception of Doak. Some times the things he says amaze me too and make me sit back and really ponder.  

This is definitely no criticism of either of them. Matter of fact, I think it's probably a good thing, maybe a very good thing, maybe even a great thing. I like mystery, in golf architecture, and in other things too.  

And it's interesting what you say about the par 5s at PD perhaps being holes that get you from one really good thing to another really good thing.

In my mind that is simply the mystery of what I call the jigsaw puzzle of routing and design. Some holes in the mind of the architect are what might be called "connectors". Other times, and it seems to me particularly with par 3s they can be the necessary "separators" the architect need in their area to connect two very good things he doesn't want to either give up or compromise.

[Tom_Doak]

Some architects are conscious of the rhythm and flow of a course while they are designing it, and some don't care.  However I don't know whether anyone would really try to plan it in advance ... for me, at least, the rhythm and flow are suggested by the holes I have found, and then we go with the flow in the process of adding details.  A cursory review of other great courses makes it clear that the same rhythms do not work universally.

I have always found it demeaning that people refer to the par-5's at Pacific Dunes as "transition holes".  There was a long stretch of relatively flat ground between the dune complexes at #4 green and #6 green, and the other end of the plain where #3 green and #12 green are located.  To me it just made sense to route longer holes through that area, instead of trying to make a hole stop out in the middle of the plain with no natural feature to tie into.  I guess we could have built a feature out there but it did not seem necessary.

All of the holes across the plain were built in the second phase of construction of the course, so we had nine months to think about how jazzy or plain to make those holes and it was the #1 subject of debate among Mike Keiser and Jim Urbina and myself.  I was concerned we might try too hard and overcook the design on that open ground; Mike advocated that every hole should be a great hole and was afraid we might stop short of that.

In the end, I decided that the key was variety.  The third hole was so wide that the split fairway suggested itself, and the elevated green site is plenty of challenge for most people.  The eighteenth was already a fait accompli, and with the huge natural bunker I was confident no one would think it was too easy.  That left #12 and #15.  I deliberately kept #12 as subtle as I could because it was the longest hole and into the prevailing wind; and then for balance and variety we kept adding fairway bunkers to #15 until Mike was happy with it.

The real title of this thread should be "Restraint" ... a topic that few architects seem to understand or appreciate anymore.  I already knew that Bill Coore was an exception to that rule.

[Adam Clayman]

Ran - this seems to excule all urban courses which I agree with.  

JC, I can site a couple of examples where urban course stir a certain  spirituality.

I'm not smart enough to know exactly what Bll Coore is talking about, though.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think that some of Mike Strantz's courses, as dramatic and flashy as they tend to be, possess some of these "quiet moments."  I'd put forth Caledonia as an example.  The first five holes are fairly understated (with the arguable exception of #3), but the drama comes in at 6, 7, and 8.  Then (and here's why I don't think people give it credit), 9 is a perfect little breather hole before heading to the more thrilling back nine.  I personally don't care if it's a loopy routing; the hole is a good transition (I just hate ending the round with that hole).

I think True Blue works in similar but opposite fashion.  After a dramatic first four holes, #5 is fairly understated.  The next three holes get more dramatic, and then #9 is a pretty good birdie opportunity.  I'd name 12 and (to a certain extent) 13 at the back's quiet holes (even 14 can be tamed) before the neat final four holes.

[TEPaul]

Ran:

This brings up another interesting thing that some of the best architects such as Tillinghast said about certian holes;

He said that often there are holes that need to have some character kicked into them so they will be able to hold their heads up to the rest of the holes out there.

How an architect goes about kicking some character into holes like that is really interesting and the fact is in some cases it seems to me that they never did enough "character kicking on certain holes even on some of the greatest courses in the world. In my opinion, one of those holes is the second half of the 9th at NGLA. That part of that hole needs some serious character kicked into it. Its head has not been held up to the rest out there for almost a century now. Next time I'm out there I'm going into the maintenance office and grab Salinetti, haul him out to the second half of #9 so he can watch me kick that hole about its chest and shoulders in the hopes that will allow it to pick its head up somewhere near the rest.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thanks Tom, I am finding it difficult to think of what about 3 might make one be concerned with hitting it out of the fairway. I am always concerned with the fairway bunkers. I have put it in the right rough but only when lined up right and hitting a slice with the help of a strong left to right wind.

[wsmorrison]

JD Rockefeller, Jr. wrote to Flynn after the completion of the course Flynn designed and built on the family estate near Tarrytown, NY.  JDR, Jr. wrote on November 29, 1939,

"Dear Mr. Flynn:

A little more than a year has passed since you completed the construction of an eighteen hole reversible golf course for us at Pocantico Hills.  Nature has completely obliterated the scars which the work necessitated and the lawns were never more beautiful.  You have built for us a completely modern, up-to-date, sporting golf course.  But you have done far more.  By your skill in designing the course you have led the player to the most charming viewpoints, many of which were seldom visited before, while as a result of your ability in adapting the course to the surrounding area, you have made it seem like something natural to the place rather than an intrusion and a blemish.  Both in design and execution the enterprise has been carried through with a high order of taste, ability and painstaking care.  The result is most satisfactory and I cannot speak too highly of what you and your organization have done for us.

It is a pleasure to send to you and Mr. Gordon, under whose competent direction the work was carried out, these expressions of approval.

Very sincerely,

signed John D. Rockefeller, Jr.

[BCrosby]

Tom's suggestion that "restraint" is a better word than "quiet moments" seems right to me.

Being able to use "restraint" is a luxury many modern architects don't have, what with anxious developers, magazine ratings and all that. It has gone missing in a lot of modern architecture. That wasn't always the case.    

The fact that Bill Coore thought Tom's use of restraint was novel is a sign of how far things have evolved (devolved?) over the decades.  

Bob

[Eric Olsen]

This thread is actually making me think about the (too negative, imho) thread of a few weeks ago about Golf in the Kingdom.  I think I fully grok what Coore means by this concept, just as I am equally sure that my words to describe it will fail to adequately capture it.  But one example might be the dramatic way your sight lines and light of various holes from different vantage points changes in a single round.  In one round, you move through visual and physical spaces several different times.  Think about 2, 6, and 16, for example, and how many different perspectives you get of those holes in a single round.  Or the spaces and views  across and among 3, 12, and 4.  

[Ian Andrew]

The 11th at Highland Golf Links.
 
There is no question that the 11th at Highland Golf Links in Nova Scotia is intended as a breather hole. The first 10 holes at Highland run up and down the landscape like an out of control roller coaster slicing wildly through rolling wooded terrain. The 11th completely contrasts , built on the flat valley bottom almost like the high flat section on the roller coaster ride that sets you up for the next big drop.

The hole was designed as medium length par four – bunkered only for alignment – its fairway the widest on the course with an unusually flat and wide-open green. The 11th is a chance to catch your breath, hopefully make a par, and prepare for the next dizzying run of holes over Highland's rumpled terrain. More importantly it offers the best view of the surrounding mountains on the course.  Thompson let the player relax and enjoy the views of this magnificent hidden valley, giving them time to savour this special place.

Roller coaster designers know they must space their thrills with breaks to maximize the enjoyment of the ride. Architects from the golden era seemed to used the breather hole between dramatic sections to relax players before taking them through a second difficult or dramatic section. A well-designed breather hole also builds anticipation for the next exciting section. I think breather holes represent another smart design technique that modern architecture does not accept.

Tom's right this could be a thread about restraint.

[Mike Hendren]

I immediately thought of the 7th at Victoria National.  It is a secluded, visual respite from the drama and challenge that is otherwise omni-present:



Mike

[Michael Ryan]

Ran,

#11 at Waterville.  To me, meets your definition of "quiet" and the literal definition.  Difficult par 4 in #10 and a great par 3 in #12 (with some wonderful history, dubbed "The Mass Hole").  11 is flowing par 5 set in the dunes that literally is the quietest place I have experienced in Golf.  Can't see or hear any other players, obviously can't hear any golf carts, and you even lose the sound of the ocean while playing this hole.  I also think its a quiet transition between two difficult holes...great post.

[ForkaB]

By these definitions, the oft maligned 7th at Dornoch would be a "quiet" hole.  However, if you are playing golf over it, it is anything but.......

[John Kirk]

...Instead, the sequence of holes from 1 through to 18 takes the golfer on a wonderful walk through nature with the golfer free to appreciate his surrounds...

...Within some modern architecture, there is one-upmanship from hole to hole, with each hole competing against one another for the golfer’s attention...

...What are some other ‘quiet moments’?  Had you heard this expression before? And do you agree/disagree with it?

Ran, I like this first statement very much.  My enjoyment of golf is directly related to the nature walk, noting all the components of the environment.  One reason I prefer newer courses is they tend to exist in more pristine, unaltered environments.

I would like someone to suggest a course that has holes that compete with one another for attention.  I'm not sure I agree with this statement.  I'd say good golf holes all have the potential for taking someone to their quiet place.

The most peaceful I felt this year came at the strangest time.  I was playing in a tournament at Columbia-Edgewater CC in Portland.  It was the second round of a weekend tournament, and I had played very well, but was letting it get away.  After a rash of bogeys, I was 7 over after 12 holes, and feeling desperate.  I thought about a playing hint I had recently heard, about deep breathing to relax while competing.  I forced myself to slow down and breathe deeply to quiet my mind.  Our threesome spontaneously discontinued its friendly banter, while we all focused on the task at hand.  I had 5 pars and a lucky birdie on the way in to finish at 77.  The peace I felt under the pressure of something very important to me was profound.  I felt nothing, but it felt good.

Interesting to hear Bill Coore talk about quiet moments.  I saw him once give a talk at Hidden Creek, and once sitting at dinner with Ben Crenshaw at Sand Hills one evening.  In each case he seemed like a very mellow, quiet, and relaxed man.  Not a nervous person.  I think he has a lot of quiet moments.

[Aaron Katz]

I don't take Bill Coore's comments to be that the par 5's at Pacific Dunes are "boring" allow a player to hit an "unthinking shot."  I think that, instead, Mr. Coore is comparing a great golf course to a great symphony or piano concerto.  

Many of the greatest works of classical music start with a bang and have small crescendos at the end of the first movement; are somewhat softer and slower through the middle movement(s); and end with a dynamic crescendo in the last movement.  Very few great works end with a wimper (though some do).

At first, the audience might get bored or disappointed with the middle movement(s), thinking it/them to be a lull in the action. It is only after many times listening to the piece that the audience recognizes (a) that a piece with nothing but crescendos would be overly stimulating, and (b) that the "lulls" actually make the final crescendo more exciting because it creates a "roller coaster" effect.  

A great golf course should be the same.  This is why Pebble Beach's opening holes work so well.  The first is a non-descript hole but still has a challenging green site.  The second hole allows the player to stretch his legs and bomb a drive to a fairly open target.  The third hole gives the player a first taste of the ocean breeze.  The fourth gives the player a glimpse of the ocean, and the player can feel the crescendo.  The old fifth hole would then tease the player a bit, taking him away from the ocean that he just got a glimpse of on the fourth.  Then the player walked to the sixth, where the ocean was now in sight, but obscured by the hill and the trees on the right.  This is why I have always loved the sixth hole at Pebble.  The player hits his second shot over the hill, not knowing where it is.  He walks up the hill not only anticipating his ball, but also anticipating what he will see in front of him when he reaches the crest.  That crescendo (the end of the first movement) continues through hole 10, at which point the middle movement starts.  The "lull" in the middle makes the end that much more thrilling.

[Dan Smoot]

The par 5's spoken about at PD have left their impression on me and are far from ordinary.  

I love the challenge of No.3 from tee to green.  My fear/challenge is not to get into that center fairway bunker although I am very aware of the gorse on the right.  This doesn't sound like the most confident frame of mind does it.  If I hit a good drive,  I like the enticement (foolishness) of trying to reach the green in two which I amazingly did the last time.  However the back left and front right bunkers are incredibly intimidating.  I have witnessed some horrific experiences in that back left bunker.  There is nothing transitional about this hole on any shot except for the anticipation of getting that first view of the ocean with the sound of the ocean breaking as you approach the green.

No. 12 is a hole that is the most disappointing personally.  Nothing wrong with the hole but I have always come away feeling I should have done better.  Everything is right there in front of you but when I have veered left or right, I have paid the price.  This hole looks more benign than any other on the course, so from that perspective there may be a lull in the excitement as you transition from the great No.11 to the majestic No.13 but why does that left bunker about 100 yards from the green always seem to call to me.

No.15 is a great par 5.  The fairway bunkers on both shots are in the just the right places to make me uncomfortable.  It really gives me a narrowing feeling that I don't experience too many places on the course.  I don't know if that is just me or not.  I feel I have to really be on my toes in getting/keeping my ball in the right spot to succeed.

[Kalen Braley]

I can see why some might think of #12 as transitional in nature, especially after taking the long walk from the 11th green over to the 12th tee box. The other par 5s were nothing short of extremely well done in my mind.

The options on #3 are endless for your 1st and 2nd shots, especially when you consider the two previaling wind types.  When the pin is tucked back right that hole will give you all you can want and more, even with a wedge in your hand.

#15, while straight forward off the tee, presents many things to think about as you get closer to the green.  The fairway bunker about 80 yards short of the green would make for a tough par if you find it. Then greenside getting it on the right level is key for any chance of birdie.

#18 is an amazing hole and doesn't get the praise it deserves.  While the tee shot must avoid the bunker left, the 2nd shot is even more intimidating as the fairway pinches and slopes severely from left to right with nasty rough waiting for any who slightly push thier ball.  Even with a wedge in for the 3rd, i've still yet to figure out how to get the ball anywhere near that front left hole location.  And the greenside bunker to the right of that green is as unique of any I've seen.

Those par 5s can hold up to any of the other holes on the course.

[Joe Bentham]

#3 at Pac might be the best hole on the course....In terms of a first time visit, its the first real WOW hole.  People get up to that tee for the first time and are floored by the beauty of the golf before them.  I think the fairway bunkers are in the perfect place...people spend so much energy trying to stay right or left of them, never understanding that its a par5 and there are worse places to be then in the bunkers off the tee.  Into the wind (which it is 8 months out of the year) it is a 3 shot hole every time.
#12 is a sleeper.  Again it normally plays into the wind and almost always is a 3 shotter.  Its hard to convince players to hit the 2nd/3rd shot far enough right to open the green up.  But I agree that coupled with the green to tee walk from 11, it is a bit of a 'rest' hole.  Not a hole short on strategy, just a bit more subtle then some of the others.
#15 is a 'go' hole.  Normally down wind, it might require the best tee shot of the day with the driver.  I like 5 wood or a rescue alot of the time to stay short of the bunkers right of the tee (I've made eagle hitting rescue 6 iron).  The hump on the front right of the green might be the toughest green side hazard on the course.  I also love how you can't see a single fairway bunker looking back from the green.
I didn't see anyone mention 18 as a 'quiet moment', but 18 tee is a great place to catch your breath one last time before you play another great hole.
I think the course is full of potential 'quiet moments'.  Many of the green to tee walks, and most of the tees allow for quiet reflection and some sort of great view.  And I think we'd be selling Doak and co. short if we didn't give them all the credit in the world for this.  As for Mr. Coore, the man is a walking 'quiet moment'.  I've been lucky enough to work for Bill several times at the resort, most recently this summer.  And I've learned alot on accident and enjoyed myself immensely.

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