Cart paths as hazards!

[Brad Swanson]

What can be done about this situation??!!  Several times this summer I have been victimized by stroke and distance penalties on a number of courses where the architect decides to put the cartpath a few steps from the fairway at the bend of a dogleg with OB or jungle just a large bounce off the cartpath away (or a similar situation).  Interestingly, all of the courses where I have had this happen have been designed by the same designer.  In most cases, locating the path to the other side of the fairway would aleviate the problem (which is possible in the holes I am thinking of).  

To you architects out there, where does the unfortunate cartpath planning fall into the general scheme of designing a hole/course.  Is it a complete afterthought, or just a very low priority?

Brad Swanson

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brad,

I consider them right up front.  While this web site discusses endlessly the merits of other design features, such as bunker placement, I seriously doubt that there is a web site arguing whether people take the easiest circulation route - i.e. a straight line - anywhere.  

That tendency is so strong that you must consider it very early in design, and you must then arrange at least some hazards around it, i.e .putting them predominantly on the other side of the fairway or green unless you accommodate expected traffic.  W/o this type of thought, you get worn spots.

Having said that, I was surprised to see Graves and Cornish  in "Golf Course Design" (their old book, not the new classic golf holes one) recommend placing cart paths on the inside of doglegs for the reason listed above.  I try to put them to the outside, since the eye is also naturally drawn to the inside of the dogleg, and they become very visible.

I also like to keep paths 20-25 yards from the edge of the fairway, but sometimes space precludes that.

[Dave_Miller]

Jeff:

It's nice to know you put real thought into the placement of cart paths when designing.   It seems some just don't.

Since cart paths have become a necessary evil (just behind the carts themselves) they should be placed as far out of play as possible.  Get them inside the tree lines if possible and hide them.

Best
Dave

[Jeff Fortson]

Cart paths should be played like telephone wires.  YOU MUST REPLAY THE SHOT.  Balls bouncing on concrete was never intended to be a part of the game.  Cart paths shouldn't even exist.  Dirt roads or worn out areas are acceptable at best.  I HATE cart paths!

Jeff F.

[John Foley]

17th hole 175 yard tee par 3 and I'm one under, round of my life. Push a nice 6 iron a little right guarding against the water all down the left side. I'm pleading for it to get in the bunker. Nope, cart path! 30 yards later it comes to rest in a scrub bush. Unplayable lie. Drop. Next shot goes in the bunker. Walk off the green w/ a triple!!!

I know cart paths are necessary. Lets just make sure they get put in the proper position.

Mike Cirba knows the course & the hole

[Bob_Huntley]

Jeff:

One of the most satisfying shots that I ever made was off of the road on the 18th at the Old Course. A little flip eight iron to a few feet and a successful putt... priceless. I would have hated to have taken a drop.

[Jeff Fortson]

A road is not a Cart Path.  The road is an integral part of the natural surroundings of the course.  Totally different in my opinion.  But good example of concrete being in play in golf, but to me that is one of the very rare exceptions.

Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave S & Jeff F,

Sometimes cart paths are necessary due to membership demands.

Courses in Florida or other locations subjected to considerable rainfall are examples of courses where cart paths serve a useful function.  These tend to be courses without caddies, where the membership wants to play even though the course may be recovering from substantial rainfall, but the day is suitable for golf.

Cart paths can also serve as roadways for heavy maintainance equipment, thus avoiding excessive damage to the golf course in good weather and bad..

The need for a cart path should be looked at very carefully on a hole by hole basis.

I don't think wildly errant shots should be granted privilege because they hit a cart path.

[Brad Swanson]

Jeff B.,
   Looks like I'll have to schedule a round at Canterbury to critique your cartpath-routing skills.  I'm sure they rate better than a certain prolific Coloradoan architect whose sloppy cartpaths have saddle(rock)d me with 4 undeserved stroke and distance penalties this year alone (3 on the 10th hole!).

Brad Swanson

[Dennis_Harwood]

Cart paths should be played like telephone wires.  YOU MUST REPLAY THE SHOT.  Balls bouncing on concrete was never intended to be a part of the game.  Cart paths shouldn't even exist.  Dirt roads or worn out areas are acceptable at best.  I HATE cart paths!

Jeff F.

Jeff--

The mandatory "replay" rule(and it must be mandatory) you refer to is set forth in 33-8/13 and is a local rule which must be adopted to be in force--

 Its intended(as the decision states) to correct "a perfectly played shot which can be deflected".  Very few "perfectly played shots" hit cart paths--

 I would also hate to act as a marker or officiate events where mandatory replays are required for any ball contacting a cart path(how are you going to know in some cases whether the ball touched  the path or not?)--

One solution where the path is near the boundary is to put the OB line inside the path--then there is no concern that the "bounce" took the ball out--  

[JohnV]

In USGA course rating, if a cart path is close to an OB or water hazard, the hazard or OB rating can be increased by one because the path makes it effectively closer to play.

The worse luck I've ever had with cart paths was at the Magnolia course at Walt Disney World where I had 5 balls in one round bounce off paths into ponds.  Probably one or 2 would have made it with the paths.

[Tyler Kearns]

Brad,
       I work at a golf course architecture firm, and cart paths are far from a low priority in the design process. Cart paths tie in directly to the discussion on wear patterns of players entering and leaving tee and green sites. They are as has been stated above, a necessary evil, and can come into play for the detriment of the game. Thus, the objective of the firm in this regard is to both minimize possible effects of paths on the game of golf, and to limit their visibility. Sadly, it is becoming a trend to feature full length paths, to appease the growing ranks of devout cart-riders whom encroach upon the experience for us dedicated walkers, to both limit damage during wet periods and to add comfort to the ride for cart-junkies. In times of growing golf course competition, no chance exists for club owners and managers to turn down such an easy profit generator. This, of course makes the job all the more difficult.  

[Doug Siebert]

Jeff:

One of the most satisfying shots that I ever made was off of the road on the 18th at the Old Course. A little flip eight iron to a few feet and a successful putt... priceless. I would have hated to have taken a drop.

I had a similarly satisfying up and down par from the blacktop behind the 17th (Road Hole) at the Old Course last year, so I know what you mean.  But that's a different situation than what Brad is talking about, unless someone knows of a course where public roads closely follow the path of every hole on the course!

I was playing with Brad earlier this week to witness his latest victimization by poor cartpath placement, and I've had similar problems on occasion as well.  Is any thought ever given to covering the surface of cartpaths in sensitive areas with something to make the bounces less extreme?  Has anyone ever seen this?  Its little touches like that which make a nice impression among players who notice those things.  I'm reminded of the little artificial turf covers on the sprinkler heads at Muirfield, which both reduce the impact of an unlucky bounce off one after a perfect shot in the fairway as well as make the course more aesthetically pleasing, as a good example of this.