Were the origins of the game in Scotland sexist?

[Lou_Duran]

My wife and I had the great pleasure of sharing a dinner table for nearly two weeks with two delightful ladies in their 70s from Aberdeen.  They were both very active in a local bowling club, and one of them had competed in recent years on their national team.  From our many discussions, it became clear that the things they enjoyed about bowling are available in golf, so I asked them why they hadn't taken up the game.  The response was that in their day, the environment was generally hostile for girls on the golf course, and that even today, it was not particularly friendly.  Are their perceptions on the mark?  Could it have been more of a regional thing?  How are things in 2009?

BTW, one was 100% for the nearby proposed Trump course, while the other had reservations.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Maybe, there was always that old story that GOLF = Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Lou

I will not comment in fear of being accused of being out of date

Melvyn

[Michael Dugger]

I suspect cases of discrimination based on gender exists in numerous cultures....not just the good 'ol US of A

[Kalen Braley]

I suspect cases of discrimination based on gender exists in numerous cultures....not just the good 'ol US of A

As well as it wasn't  just limited to golf.

It existed pretty much everywhere in all facets of life, not just chasing the little white ball around.

[Niall C]

I wonder if they mean't that it was an age thing rather than sex ie. the fact that they were juniors rather than female.

In my experience, you always get some individual men who can't abide women on the course because they think they hold them up (in my experience rarely the case and some times the opposite) and they hate jumiors for the same reason.

Apart from individuals, I don't think there is a problem in clubs as institutions, but then I'm a member of an all male club   

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  Could the origins of the game have been have been so rudimentry that weomen did not want to play. Not many weomen would like to be uotdoors when it is raining side ways wearing uncomfortable clothes. The course was not manicured like today also. From histort didn't they have putting clubs?

   Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

Lou

Even I am not old enough to know what life was like for lady golfers in Scotland in the post-WWII period, but I doubt if it was anything different than what it was in the USA--i.e. tolerance but not full acceptance.  However, since Mary Queen of Scots was reported to be playing golf in the 16th century, and the finest lady golfer in the world in the 20s and 30s (according to Bob Jones) was Joyce Wethered, I think that the ladies from Aberdeen were historically mistaken.  As for now, both of my clubs gave women full voting rights in the late 1990's, and one of them elected a Lady as Captain at the same time.  Women are still a minority on the golf course but IMHO this is an issue of relative interest rather than discrimination.

Rich

PS--How was the cruise?

rfg

[Melvyn Morrow]

I’m enjoying watching you guys stumble around in the dark. I’m sorry that I am unable to give you any information in case I am again accused of being either naive, elitist or morally superior.

Can’t seem to get it right whatever I do.

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

I’m enjoying watching you guys stumble around in the dark. I’m sorry that I am unable to give you any information in case I am again accused of being either naive, elitist or morally superior.

Can’t seem to get it right whatever I do.

Melvyn

Ahh cmon Melyvn, I would love to be enlightened on this topic!!!  You can't be all guns-a-blazing on other topics and back down from this one!! 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

Come on mate, it that not just too easy even for you. I thought you just liked it easy not too easy

Melvyn

[Lou_Duran]

This topic came to mind when I learned recently that one of Texas' best women amateurs is stricken with an inoperable, late stage of cancer.  I used to play with her quite a bit, and she was part of a large, competitive group I was in for many years.  One of the most difficult things I had to do in golf was to pull her aside some 20 years ago to tell her that she was no longer welcomed to play with the group.  For reasons that I still can't understand (the ususal BS that the guys felt inhibited playing with a woman because they might not be able to take a leak by a tree or cuss, etc.), a number in the group didn't want her in the game, and when it became apparent that I couldn't get them to back-off, I took it upon myself to deliver the bad news.  She was much better about it than I was, but this episode still bothers me today.    

Melvyn,

I would welcome your perspective.  I am looking for historical information to qualify the ladies' rather matter-of-fact beliefs.  With their love of the outdoors, competition, an active lifestyle, and social interaction, golf is right up their alley.  If their perceptions are accurate, I better understand how we (in the U.S.) got to where we are, and golf is the poorer for it.  It was always my impression that the origins of golf were more egalitarian/democratic.


Niall,

They both said girls, not boys and girls.  And according to them, it was more institutional than the common, even today, of a sprinkling of males who don't want to be around women is sports and/or business.

Rich,

Thanks for your comments.  Are there many outstanding women ams and pros hailing from Scotland or other parts of the UK?

The cruise was very enjoyable, though it furthered cemented my perspective that it would be a good thing for the U.S. not to become like Europe.  It is great visiting different places, and having the option to return home.  Vive la difference!

[Niall C]

  Could the origins of the game have been have been so rudimentry that weomen did not want to play. Not many weomen would like to be uotdoors when it is raining side ways wearing uncomfortable clothes. The course was not manicured like today also. From histort didn't they have putting clubs?

   Anthony

Anthony

Back in the early boom period of golf in the 1890's there were quite a few ladies courses built alongside the main course including at places like St Andrews, Bridge of Weir etc. so I don't know that the relative rudimentary nature of the game at that time had anything to do with it. With regards to your comments regarding apparel, equally the men played with shirt, collar and tie which in this day and age you just wouldn't entertain for comfort reasons so don't think that would be reason not to play. Besides tha game was over a much shorter course and much less athletic than it is now. To a lesser extent all that would be true of the 1940's when these ladies were girls.

Niall

[Niall C]

Lou

I hear what you're saying and I suppose that there will always be a degree of tension when you have different sections in a club ie mens section and ladies section, just as you will have between certain individuals.

With regards to it being institutionalised I would suggest that is just there perception which I don't think holds much water. One of the biggest changes over the last decade has been that most member clubs have been looking to get Lottery funding, which is Govertment funding given out to deserving causes such as sports clubs. In order to be eligible for funding you have to to meet certain criteria regarding equal opportunities etc. For this reason you can be sure that the HCEG, R&A, Prestwick, Western, Glasgow Gailes etc wouldn't be eligible even if they wanted it.

To give an example my old club, Bothwell Castle GC "had" to offer ladies full membership to be eligible for the funding. Previously the ladies paid a reduced sub but in return didn't get full voting rights and limited access to the courses. When given the choice, a lot the ladies were ambivalent about taking up full membership but by offering them the chance the club ticked the box for eligibility for lottery funding. That was a few years ago and its a mute point whether the ladies would have been offered full membership by now in the absence of Lottery funding. Certainly I wasn't aware of any groundswell of opinion for it from the lady members that I knew.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  Does troon stil not allow weomen on the championsip course?

  Anthony

[Carl Johnson]

. . . in their day, the environment was generally hostile for girls on the golf course, and that even today, it was not particularly friendly.  Are their perceptions on the mark?  Could it have been more of a regional thing?  How are things in 2009? . . . .

From the U.S.A. side I'd say it's not regional and that although things are improving for women, it's going to take a good while longer for them to be accepted by all (or most all) men as equals on the golf course.  Why?  Sex (and other) discrimination generally.  Different social cultures (many men more interested in golf for the opportunity to drink beer, smoke cigars and art, which they are not real comfortable about doing with women present), and club golf is largely social.  There's also the issue of getting beat by a woman -- who wants that?  (For years I participated in road races [running] where men and women normally compete together on the same course at the same time, although for awards purposes not against each other.  Needless to say, many, many women hit the finish line ahead of me.  Not a problem at all, really, but maybe some take a while to get used to it.)

[Ken Moum]

  Does troon stil not allow weomen on the championsip course?

  Anthony

When i was planning our 2006 trip, which included two women, I recall that they allowed women of a 24 handicap or lower.  We had one player who was a ~30, and that combined with $400 to play sealed the deal.

K

[Bob_Huntley]

Anthony,

Does troon stil not allow weomen on the championsip course?

Anthony

Anthony,

The joke has gone on too long, give it a rest.

Bob

[Sean_A]

If golf is microcosm of society and society at large was sexist at the time, the only reasonable answer is yes.  That said, I believe there was a strong inclination to allow women to play from the outset, only that the organizations of play and socializing should be separate - which was often the case with society at large at the time. 

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

While surely there have always been issues, from what I have read it believe it was largely a post WWII phenomenon.   Reading the old magazines it is quite surprising how much coverage women's golf received and how many top quality female players there were.   It is hard to judge it empirically, but I get the impression that women's golf was relatively more popular and women golfers were generally more accepted in the early days of golf in America than after WWII.   I don't know about outside the United States.  

As an aside, before the boy caddie, Pinehurst's advertising logo was a formally dressed lady swinging a club.

[Anthony Gray]

  Does troon stil not allow weomen on the championsip course?

  Anthony

When i was planning our 2006 trip, which included two women, I recall that they allowed women of a 24 handicap or lower.  We had one player who was a ~30, and that combined with $400 to play sealed the deal.

K

  When I was there in 2000 they did not if I recall correctly. I am glad to see a change. Do theyl require you to play the other course also?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Does troon stil not allow weomen on the championsip course?

Anthony

Anthony,

The joke has gone on too long, give it a rest.

Bob

  Bob...I am unaware of the TRoon joke regarding weomen, but I would love to hear it.

  Thanks....Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Thanks for your comments.  Are there many outstanding women ams and pros hailing from Scotland or other parts of the UK?

Outstanding?  Not really.  Very good or potentially very good, a few.  IMO, of course.  The GBI record in the Curtis Cup is pretty abysmal.

[Lou_Duran]

From Melvyn Morrow:

" ... much effort was made to give women their own clubs and in some cases courses, when golf became very popular in the 1870-80’s. Just passed the site of the Rusack Hotel in St Andrews, Old Tom built a short Ladies course. Also, he built another short course in St Andrews at St Leonards School (looking towards the harbour and the Castle Course) for the girls. This being three four years before years before the Ladies course, better known as the Duffers Course (duffer meaning learner/beginner), today you know the course as The Jubilee Course at St Andrews. Many other courses (Broughty Ferry Ladies Club Barnhill Dundee) were built for the Ladies and the old papers are full of many competitions for ladies which were well attended. As for earlier dates because Mary Queen of Scots played at St Andrews, plus her son James VI of Scotland the one and same as James I of England, I believe it was not really sexist, although many clubs were Male only, hence so many Ladies clubs open later and were well supported. Perhaps in Scotland men can sometime be forgiven for being confused as to who actually wears the pants."

I think it was David Moriarty during the Martha Burke/ANGL brouhaha who pointed out somewhat persuasively the problems with separate but egual and right to associate arguments.  As I mentioned to Melvyn, perhaps Aberdeen didn't provide similar oppotunities for the ladies.  Or maybe my dinner companions were ahead of their time and particularly sensitive to such slights.  They reported that the bowling clubs are not without characters who disapprove of co-ed sporting activities.

 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

One of the contributory factors to Mary, Queen of Scots, losing her head (or was it failing to miss the cut?) was that she was spotted out on the golf course within 24 hours of the death of her husband, Lord Darnley. That was in 1567 - so women have been playing golf longer than we might suppose.