Coore's praise of the 'quiet moments' at PacDunes

[Ran Morrissett]

At dinner last week, Bill Coore was going on and on in praise regarding a certain course. Naturally, it wasn’t a course that he designed but rather Pacific Dunes. We went over the various aspects that he admired so much, many of which have been aptly covered within this Discussion Group.

One point though which was very much front and center in his mind is something that I had never heard/thought of before and that was the concept of ‘quiet moments’. We all know/appreciate how Tom and crew used the par fives at PacDunes to connect the holes across the plateau. To my way of thinking, Tom used the three shotters to chew through the portions of the property with the least natural features. After the 3rd, there is the spectacular cliffside 4th. After the 12th there is the spectacular 13th etc. After the 15th, there is the great stretch of holes in, including the 16th, which personally holds more playing interest to me than either the 4th or 13th (but that’s for a different thread!).

Anyway, none of that was Coore’s prime point. Rather, what he was praising was that one of the reasons that PacDunes is such a favorite is that it is a delight to play. And why is it such a delight? Because, according to Coore, the holes don’t compete with one another. Instead, the sequence of holes from 1 through to 18 takes the golfer on a wonderful walk through nature with the golfer free to appreciate his surrounds. Within some modern architecture, there is one-upmanship from hole to hole, with each hole competing against one another for the golfer’s attention. Ultimately, the golfer (maybe subconsciously) becomes weary of such design tactics in part because of sensory overload and in part because there are no ‘quiet moments’ to reflect on one’s surrounds. The sum of the parts of such courses, though each of the holes might have merit in their own right, somehow fails when considered as a whole.

I thought Coore’s point on quiet moments was a superb one and it made me think of other courses with such moments. Immediately what came to mind from this past year was coming out of the dunes at Hoylake and playing the Field hole (be it the 14th or 16th  ) before RLGC’s famously strong finish.

What are some other ‘quiet moments’?  Had you heard this expression before? And do you agree/disagree with it?

Cheers,

[mike_beene]

It seems 15 at Pebble,and maybe 2,fit this thought.9 and 10 at TOC,more because they are tucked in the corner and theoretically easier to navigate.

[Bill_McBride]

That's a very interesting discussion.

I think the reason par 5s can be "quiet moments" is because most have either a tee shot or a second shot that is fairly uneventful for most players.  For longer players, the second shot will usually be eventful but perhaps the tee shot is just placing the ball in position for the second shot.

It's interesting that Bill Coore would be so perceptive about the par 5s at Pacific Dunes.  I thought after playing Friars Head that the par 5s there served an equally key role, which I told Tommy N. that I thought was as "escalators."   All four par 5s there are transitional holes, taking you either "Down" (#2 and #11) or "Up" (#7 and #14).

It would have been difficult to achieve those transitions in such seamless fashion without the par 5s.  To me it was one of the most memorable parts of the incredible Friars Head routing and experience.

[Steve Lang]

 

I assume you're referring beyond the ebb and flow of the course difficulty as may be charted by hole handicap #'s.. certainly there's many old schemes of lulling the player into a different mind-set.. but none as powerful as with synoptics..

p.s. I have gotten such at your SPCC's 9th green.. to loop or not to loop , that is the question

[Jonathan Cummings]

Ran - this seems to excule all urban courses which I agree with.  

I have always thought that golf was meant to be played with nature and any distractions should count against the course (however you measure a course quality).

Barnbougle, many Irish and Scottish lesser known links, Bandon, Cape Brenton Highlands, Sand Hills, and others I haven't named are all examples of courses Coore is suggesting.

JC

[Jerry Kluger]

Ran: If I understand the point correctly, then clearly, that same feeling exists at Ballyneal. The holes at Ballyneal do not compete with one another, and in fact, it does not matter what order or sequence you play them.  There are so many different loops that you can make but it really doesn't matter which one you choose; you're out there enjoying the world that is before you and what hole you've played, you're playing, or you're about to play doesn't really matter.  It's golf in its most basic and simplest form - a quiet moment.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

To better understand the concept and to be able to prepare a cogent answer, how much had been consumed by the participants in this discussion when this issue was raised ?

Did you get a chance to discuss with Bill Coore, his thoughts on how the finishing hole at Hidden Creek is meant to seperate and identify the better player ?

Did you also ask him if he ever considered reversing the nines.

With respect to your question, historically, par 3's have been used to bridge the voids.

It is interesting that the connections Bill speaks about seem to be prevalent at Friars Head.  # 2, # 7 and # 11 immediately come to mind, with # 14 sliding in the same way that # 15 slides in a PD.

Perhaps the difference is the transitioning of the routing vis a vis par 5's versus the connecting of the routing vis a vis par 3's.

To a degree, the 9th at Sebonack would seem to fit Bill's bill as well.

[Bill_McBride]

Ran,

To better understand the concept and to be able to prepare a cogent answer, how much had been consumed by the participants in this discussion when this issue was raised ?

Did you get a chance to discuss with Bill Coore, his thoughts on how the finishing hole at Hidden Creek is meant to seperate and identify the better player ?

Did you also ask him if he ever considered reversing the nines.

With respect to your question, historically, par 3's have been used to bridge the voids.

It is interesting that the connections Bill speaks about seem to be prevalent at Friars Head.  # 2, # 7 and # 11 immediately come to mind, with # 14 sliding in the same way that # 15 slides in a PD.

Perhaps the difference is the transitioning of the routing vis a vis par 5's versus the connecting of the routing vis a vis par 3's.

To a degree, the 9th at Sebonack would seem to fit Bill's bill as well.

Patrick, you are correct, #14 is the last par 5, not #13.

[Tom Dunne]

Ran,

I've been thinking about this concept a lot lately. I interpret Bill's comments on the "quiet moment" as being a natural extension of what Mike DeVries describes as the "rhythm and flow" of a golf course's routing in his 2002 Feature Interview. A great golf course is in part an exercise in building and releasing tension in the player, both physically and mentally, and I find it fascinating how different courses hit their peaks and valleys at different points in the round.

Interesting that you mentioned par-fives. I immediately thought of the commonly criticized back-to-back par-fives (numbers 4 and 5) at Ballybunion Old, as longueurs that are just as essential to the course's narrative as the unforgettable stuff that happens later on. I'm not confusing these two for great holes, but rather as something similar to the feeling one gets as the rollercoaster slowly climbs the steepest hill on the track. You have a chance to take a deep breath and maybe make a par or two before the run of great holes begins.

I think the fifth at Sebonack is a wonderful "quiet moment" on that course. It's a first-rate strategic hole that brings all golfers into the picture, with lots of options, in a really unassuming corner of the property. It's not the first hole that comes to mind when one invokes the name of Sebonack--it's a humble short four--but I really like how that one falls in the routing, too.

I even think Pine Valley, the "24" of golf courses, has a couple of quiet moments out there (that is, if you're in any state to be receptive to them). My sense, after all, is that we're talking about something that includes, but is not limited to, breather holes on great courses. Standing on the high 18th tee at Pine Valley leaps out at me as an absolutely gorgeous quiet moment, even though you're about to play a pretty tough golf hole. The composition of what is in front of you is just perfect. It captures so many of the elements of what Pine Valley is all about in one vista--islands of fairway amid seas of artfully wild bunkers, the tranquil lagoon off to the right, and all of the heroic and terrifying shots you've played to get to that point. The effect is overwhelming.

Great, great topic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Dunne,

I found the 5th at Sebonack to be just the opposite, depending upon the context of the discussion.

I thought it was an exciting moment because you could see the variety of plays sitting out there in front of you.

Driver, 3-wood or iron all directed at different locations, leaving you with approaches of varying angles and distances.
The permutations and combinations were exhilarating rather than numbing, isolating, soothing or transitional.

I found # 6 to be transitional in that the first 5 holes were wide open, and suddenly, standing on the 6th tee, you immediately become aware of a much narrower fairway and target, especially with the sloping fairway and a prevailing wind.

So, for me, it wasn't a quiet moment, rather, it was a very stimulating moment.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

I sense that Ran is not necessarily referring to what might be viewed as "transition" holes; instead, he focuses on holes that perhaps don't have spectacular natural features, but have some degree of strategy and architectural merit, and don't compete visually -- and to some extent aren't as intensly strategic -- as the holes that everyone talks about after a round. (By intensly strategic, I'd think of something like the 3rd at NGLA recently posted in pictures here -- boy, that hole, and I've never played it, must make one think hard all the way from the tee to the cup.)

For me (since Ran asked), I'd think of the 9th at Lawsonia. At that course, holes 1-8 are just one visual and strategic feast after another, full of enormously pushed up greens, severe green contours, blind and semi-blind drives, strategy all over the place. The 9th is something of a respite -- a sweeping par 5 of @ 530 yards, gently uphill, with something of a blind second, but not the kind of typical blind Lawsonia shot that makes you nervous or plays into strategy. The green is one of the more benign at the course, both in terms of its relationship to the ground, and its contours. It's not a transitional hole (Lawsonia has others that fit that bill, in the sense that Patrick refers to), merely a way to conclude the front 9 in a way that's somewhat less dramatic than everything that proceeds it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I found the green site at # 3 at Pacific Dunes to be spectacular.

Sometimes fairway width can be deceiving.

I also found # 12 to be an interesting hole, especially into the wind.

As to the visual competition, it's hard not to notice the Pacific Ocean on # 3 and # 12.

So, I'm not sure what Ran really meant if he wasn't talking about the par 5's serving as the "transitionary" holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Phil,

I found the green site at # 3 at Pacific Dunes to be spectacular.

Sometimes fairway width can be deceiving.

I also found # 12 to be an interesting hole, especially into the wind.

As to the visual competition, it's hard not to notice the Pacific Ocean on # 3 and # 12.

So, I'm not sure what Ran really meant if he wasn't talking about the par 5's serving as the "transitionary" holes.

"Fairway width" doesn't mean much at #3 with that bunker filling the center of the fairway, gorse left, deep rough right, and the wind in your face.  I find that one of the most intimidating tee shots at Pacific Dunes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Why am I picturing Bill Coore listening to Yanni as I read this thread?  

I truly have no idea what he's referring to.  I'm not sure that shots played aimlessly across an open plain are all that intoxicating or stimulating intellectually, even if they tend to be relaxing.  I'm not saying that any particular shot at PD falls into this category, I've played enough courses where what he describes is all too true, except I've found it to be a negative.

While not every shot can be played across or along terrain that is hair-raising, I find that most of the great architects still give you something to consider, and something to dare, and something to cause consternation, while traversing even the most dull of terrain from point A to B.

That seems to me to be much more of a challenge than simply utilizing the good parts of the property well.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Obviously you suffer from tunnel vision.

Didn't you notice all of that other fairway to the left of # 3 fairway ?

I did when my tee shots landed there.

The right side is certainly intimidating, but, a right to left wind takes some of the fear out of that shot.

I found the green/surrounds at # 3 not disimilar from those at # 2 at Sebonack, with the way the green is tucked around the dune with the bunker on the right side.

[Tom Dunne]

Patrick,

I hear you--I find the options that present themselves on that hole stimulating as well. I think in this case it's the land itself that has me putting the hole forward as possessing a "quiet moment"--that corner of the property is just so calm. The low-lying teeing ground on #6 is still very much a part of that zone (heck, it's only a few feet away from the green, and tucked away even more), and that's partly why that tight, uphill tee shot is such a jolt to the system when you turn the corner.

I just think it's a mellow golf hole that's loaded with architectural merit. Looking at Phil McDade's post, Sebonack's fifth possesses that sense of quiet without spectacular natural features, but I don't think the "quiet moment" hole is limited to that at all. This is why I also pointed to the finishing hole at PV, which is exactly the opposite.

I think the elusive thing I'm trying to get at is that these are holes that speak to the contemplative or reflective side of the golfer's spirit, but succeed in doing so without taking him out of the game. There isn't one prescribed way that this happens. PV's eighteenth is so sublime to me that I have a hard time imagining a golfer, even one walking up to that tee for the 500th time and all square in a match, not having that zen moment, however fleeting, of this majestic summation of the course and his good fortune to be alive and playing it on that day.

   

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

Obviously you suffer from tunnel vision.

Didn't you notice all of that other fairway to the left of # 3 fairway ?

I did when my tee shots landed there.

The right side is certainly intimidating, but, a right to left wind takes some of the fear out of that shot.

I found the green/surrounds at # 3 not disimilar from those at # 2 at Sebonack, with the way the green is tucked around the dune with the bunker on the right side.

If you duck hook your tee shot, the gorse is devastatingly in play to the left.

The prevailing wind is in your face or left to right.

I haven't played Sebonac yet so no comment about #2 there.

[Bill_McBride]

Pacific Dunes routing map - http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/p_course.cfm

The gorse extends in the gap between #12 and #3 fairway almost as far as the center bunker.  It's very much in play into the wind.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Do the 7th and 16th at prairie dunes fit the bill?

[Adam Sherer]

Mr. Coore's ability to isolate a transiant, though intrinsic, feeling of a "quiet moment" while playing or visiting a golf course is what seperates him from all of us.

The quiet moments are what captivate the young and enthrall the young-at-heart. It is what (I presume) brought us all to the game in the first place (and GCA secondarily).

Inevitably, this thread has gone from a heart-felt statement of why people love golf, (ie "quiet moments") towards shout-outs of "#2 at Sebonack, the par three's at Friar's Head, etc, etc."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

With today's equipment, nobody hits a duck hook anymore  

[Tim_Weiman]

Ran:

Excellent topic. Don't ask me to cite hole numbers, but I've always thought of Burnham & Berrow as a course with wonderful "quiet moments".

B&B may be the best example of this concept.

[RJ_Daley]

I can understand the "quiet moments" concept in two ways that immediatly come to mind as examples that are different design ideas entirely.

First, I don't think you can truly experience "quiet moments" in a golf cart.

I think that the walk from 11 to 12 and the playing of 12 at Crystal Downs is a quiet moment.  11 is a stressful and difficult hole.  13 is a fantastic golf hole.  But, after getting severely challenged on 9 par 3, 10 very difficult green to hit and hold an approach from drifting off to the right, 11 same difficulty holding it with severe back to front slope,  you get this very peaceful and quiet walk to 12 tee.   12 is a fine hole, but not a ball buster.  It is a place to catch your breath, enjoy the north woods, and plan your finish.

14 at Wild Horse is a quiet moment in a different way.  You come off a few strong holes, but 14 is a par 5 that is by no means weak.  Yet, it is mucho wide, and I rarely see two of the playing partners in the group hit to the same place.  It is sort of a place where after you are invited to hit your ball with wild fury and hopefully find the very wide fairway, you often scatter from the group, and walk out quietly to also then have a wide field of play to hit your second, or go for the green in two.  But, it is the walk out to the ball locations on that wide FW that you sort of go off on your own and quiet down and enjoy the prairie, the anticipation of exellent holes that the course finishes with, and quietly think how much fun you are having - if you are not playing with a bunch of magpies.  

[Mark_F]

I think the quiet moments is another way of describing one of the good old-fashioned virtues of storytelling, that of peaks and troughs, or highs and lows.

No story ever has constant highlights, but rather a rhythm that flows and gradually builds and contains parts where there may be little action, but important backstory and substance.

In golf, maybe this is the part where craft and guile are required, and where the architect foozles a player through more ingenious means.

Just as Tim likes Burnham and Berrow for this, Silloth on Solway is another fantastic example.  

[Sean_A]

I believe this topic has been hit before under other names.  Mark's storytelling and the oft mentioned rythm & flow sound like the same concept.  I think Tim Wieman is spot on with his citing of Burnham & Berrow.  The entire section of the course from #6 to #11 is in general a more reflective part of the story.  However, there are high moments to keep you alert.  The 9th and the tee shot for #10 come to mind.  The best example of a quiet moment that is usually missed is the 7th.  Visually it is more or less a dud and many players aren't looking forward to much in the next few holes.  Architecturally, the 7th is a superstar that should be savoured in a quiet moment.

St. Enodoc is another course which comes to mind in a few places.  After a rollicking start, the 4th will strike many as rather benign.  When you do eventually get to St. Enodoc don't let this hole slide by.  Pay attention.  

The course kicks it up a notch or two, highlighted by the 6th and 10th.  The 10th is maddening for most.  Enough so that the following four holes are more or less ignored.  The 12th is a sleeper.  While I wouldn't call it a quiet moment because of the playful noise floating from the beach it does demand one's attention.  The 14th ends this high section of the course with a hole that is nearly as perplexing as the 4th.  While in no way visually a bore, I can't help thinking golfers are buying time to tee off on 15 and drop back to the dunes.  This part of the course from #11 to #14 was easily one of the longest quiet moments I experienced this year.

Ciao