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George Pazin

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Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« on: December 18, 2006, 03:26:15 PM »
From the website:

Green   609
Blue     512
White   504
Red      467



The Church Pews again penalize an errant drive left and bunkers in the right rough are very severe.  However, for the long hitters, this par 5 is reachable and definitely a birdie hole.

Something not evident from the diagram: the tee shot is very elevated, but the landing area is uphill. There is a crest at roughly the point where the hole bends, meaning that the second shot is blind.

Note the cluster of bunkers on one side in the landing area of layup shots, and the fact that they are on the side of the fairway that favors the approach - pretty much textbook strategy options there.

I didn't spend as much time on this hole, so I don't have much more to offer, other than some photos (next post) and a wonderful writeup by one of our most knowledgeable posters (tomorrow - didn't have a chance to scan it yet, but I didn't want to delay the start of this thread, leading into the holidays).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 03:30:18 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 03:40:58 PM »
A couple of photos from the 4th tee, first looking left and then right:


(That's the back of the wonderful 3rd green over there)


(If I had been smart enough to walk over to the edge, you'd see the amazing 6th green - sorry - instead you get a glimpse of the 7th fairway)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »
George:

I've really enjoyed your series of holes so far at Oakmont in preparation of the Open there next year. A few questions about this one (hope I don't jump the gun here...)

-- Is the fairway really that narrow? It looks extraordinarily tight.

-- Are the trees still standing -- esp. the ones on the left side of the fairway, fronting the church pews?

-- What's the carry of the furthest bunker on the right, and/or the furthest point of the church pews bunker?

-- The tree on the right side of the fairway (in the drawing) about halfway down -- past the first set of bunkers but before the landing-area bunkers for the second shot: is that still standing? Would seem to be a good strategic use of a single tree to dictate possible path to the hole.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 03:52:38 PM »
George -

Great hole! I made eagle here last year so it holds a sentimental place in my heart.
Mr Hurricane

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 03:54:04 PM »
I hope others will chime in with more accurate facts, but since you asked me:

-- Is the fairway really that narrow? It looks extraordinarily tight.Pretty much. I've said before that I believe they could get away with almost no rough - the green complexes are that challenging - but, in keeping the the philosophy of the course, the fairways are kept relatively tight. They look MUCH tighter in photos, don't seem tight at all when you're standing in them - but they play as tight as just about any around, with the firm and fast conditions.

-- Are the trees still standing -- esp. the ones on the left side of the fairway, fronting the church pews?I haven't been there since last summer, but my understanding is there's only 1 or 2 - literally! - internal trees left on the course, so I'd guess they're gone.

-- What's the carry of the furthest bunker on the right, and/or the furthest point of the church pews bunker? I don't remember, I'll try to post the yardage info shortly.

-- The tree on the right side of the fairway (in the drawing) about halfway down -- past the first set of bunkers but before the landing-area bunkers for the second shot: is that still standing? Would seem to be a good strategic use of a single tree to dictate possible path to the hole.Again, I don't know the answer to that one.

Hope that helped a little.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 03:54:49 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 03:55:50 PM »
George -

Great hole! I made eagle here last year so it holds a sentimental place in my heart.

Jim, I remember you mentioning this before. Did you reach the green, or hole a wedge? Shiv tells me you're a bomber, so I'll assume the former. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Franklin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 04:01:10 PM »
Thanks George, but I actually hit a bad drive and knocked in a wedge  ;). I didn't even see it go in either. My playing partners were all in front of me walking and I could only see the flag from my angle. I knew I hit a good shot, and waited for their reaction and...nothing. All of the sudden one guy goes "s**t, it went in". Needless to say, he was my opponent ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Adam Clayman

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 04:20:18 PM »
Do those little church pewish bunkers right of green front have a name?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Phil McDade

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 04:51:19 PM »
George:

Thanks; I suspected the trees might be gone, given previous GCA reports on clearings at Oakmont. I do hope they widen the fairways for the Open; I've always gotten the impression that Oakmont defends par particularly at the green, but also through its strategic placement of fairway bunkers. I hope the USGA backs away from its traditional deep rough treatment and favors fairways that run all the way to Oakmont's fairly penal fairway bunkers. I get a sense from your reports and others that the Oakmont set-up for the Open will be geared toward fast and firm and -- weather cooperating -- that would seem to argue for widening the fairways.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 06:17:24 PM »
George,

On the small chance you are speaking of my writings on the hole, no need to scan......This is the original version of what I wrote for Paul Daley. No doubt Paul gently edited it to make it better for his book, but this is the "uncut" version of the DVD......

My Favorite Hole
4th Hole at Oakmont
621 Yards, Par 5
By
Jeffrey D. Brauer

I especially like holes with memorable– and colorfully named – features.  Names like “Punch Bowl,” “Bottleneck,” “Island,” or even “Maxwell’s Rolls” suggesting a history of titanic struggle between man and golf course.  

No feature is more memorable than the famous “Church Pew,” bunker at Oakmont Country Club, a large fairway bunker between the third and fourth fairways.  The bunker contains several rows of grassy hummocks, and is as fearsome as its reputation.  

While the third gets most publicity, I actually like the fourth much better.  Players like holes for many reasons.  Better players like holes with easily envisioned shots, average players love famous holes at exclusive clubs, Architects like unique features, and golf historians often like less heralded gems displaying design themes of the past.  The fourth displays elements that appeal to each of these players.

•   The tee shot is well defined, as the Church Pews, in combination with stacked bunkers on the right clearly call for a controlled fade on the tee shot.

The second shot also requires a fade, and offers great strategy, rather than the need to advance the ball as far as possible, which is unusual for par 5 holes!  There are two clusters of fairway bunkers on the right of the second landing area.  

Your dilemma is to get near these, as the green is very narrow, and angled that direction, making it much more receptive.  The green narrows towards the back, making the decision on your second shot very tricky when the pin is located there.

You can’t help but feel the unique history of the hole in American golf design and tournament history when you play.  It’s no stretch to say a course like this will never be built again.

•   The course is shamelessly penal, and historians say that “Golden Age” design theories of angles of play were inspired in response to Oakmont’s difficulty.  However, this hole shows the course really had both schools of thought.

Coincidently, while the hole appears timeless, and unchanged, it has in fact had a rebuilt green, bunkers rebuilt, and tees extended to keep the famous bunker in play for modern tournaments, and everything blends in very well.  

•   Like most average golfers, playing Oakmont was a rare treat for me, enhancing the experience of the entire day.  That I did find myself “up close and personal” with the famous Church Pews on my tee shot, replicating the famous picture of Palmer trying to recover on the third, gave me a golfing story to tell.  My plight naturally gave rise to some good natured opponent and caddy banter.  

“Should have spent more time in Church last week…“Closest you’ll ever get to playing like Palmer!”…“I’m praying for you!”…You’ll do some penance now!

Now, I have a story to tell that evokes knowing nods from golfers, of battling an instantly recognized famous adversary called the Church Pews.  And those memories is what really creates favorite holes.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 08:28:17 PM »
As a confirmed fader (ever since I learned how to stop hooking as a kid!), I have to agree with Jeff that this is a great hole.  Cut the tee shot off the Church Pews, cut the second shot off the left edge of the fairway, PW, 2 putt par or birdie, head to the 5th tee!

 8)

At least that's the way I remember it from my last couple of rounds there 15 years ago.

Rarely does a hole give you such obvious direction tips from the tee box.  The tee box at #12 gives you a bit of that too, but more about that later......

Thanks, George, good stuff.

Steve Burrows

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 01:29:19 AM »
Here is a more recent picture (Summer '06) from the back tee.  It is clear to see how the tree removal program has altered the view off the tee, relative to the previous pictures.
 .
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Chris_Clouser

Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 08:19:16 AM »
George,

Unfortunately, I don't have the length off of the tee to probably take advanatage or have the opportunity to see the strategic options on this hole, but I can see how they could apply for the longer hitters out there.  That last 100 yards into the green looks like a possible landmine for anyone thinking about hitting it to the green or trying to lay up directly in front of the green.  

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 10:01:48 AM »
For a short knocker like me; is the second shot as interesting as it looks on paper?  It looks like if playing F&F and going over the hill it could be an exciting walk.

Philippe Binette

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 10:10:56 AM »
It seems to me that the 5th fairway could be an option now that the trees are cleared (there's many bunkers to play around on the 4th fairway...

Plus, it could give a better angle to the green in two shots

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 11:08:30 AM »
For a short knocker like me; is the second shot as interesting as it looks on paper?  It looks like if playing F&F and going over the hill it could be an exciting walk.

It is indeed an exciting walk.

Jeff, thanks for posting that, I hope everyone takes the time to read it and think about it.

If anyone would like to read the real thing :), you can order the book - Favorites Holes By Design: The Architect's Choice - directly from Paul at http://www.fullswinggolf.com.au/. As with all of Paul's books, it is fantastic. If you order it from Paul, he might it drop in a short note for you.

Phillipe -

I don't know that the 5th fairway is reachable on a tee shot, and to fall short would be about the worst thing possible. You'll see more on the post of the 5th hole. I'll try to see if I can figure out the yardage, or maybe someone else can from an aerial or from the yardage book.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2006, 11:13:44 AM »
I own Paul's book - in fact I read it more than any golf book I have - it's fun to go back to, and well... each hole writeup is pretty perfect length for restroom "library" sessions.   ;)

Thus I have been waiting for this hole to show up.

I believe there is no question as to its greatness.  But it's interesting to me the "intangible" is among the things that make it great for Jeff... that is, the coolness of having a story to tell, comparing to the greats that have walked before, etc.  Of course this belongs on another thread and I don't mean to deflect from the discussion of this great golf hole, but let's just score another point for me and take another one from "pure architecture is all that matters" Mucci.

 ;D

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2006, 11:23:45 AM »
Of course this belongs on another thread and I don't mean to deflect from the discussion of this great golf hole, but let's just score another point for me and take another one from "pure architecture is all that matters" Mucci.

 ;D

Well said, point scored.

I've decided to add another element to my threads:

Cool Oakmont Tidbit of the Week:

One of my favorite things about Oakmont is the routing - completely natural, utilizing features abundant in western PA in a fashion not seen on many other local courses (or in the rest of the world, for that matter). One of the coolest things about the routing is that it offers an almost infinite (not quite, but I don't have time to figure out the combos :)) number of mini-loops, for the member who can sneak out late in the day for a few holes.

Just a small sampling, beyond the traditional front or back 9:

1-9-10-11(-12-13-14)
1-2-3-4-9(...)
1-5-6-7-8-9
10-11-12-13-14

Hopefully, you get the idea. Basically it's due to the intimate nature of the routing (intimate in the sense of everything's close, all the space is well-utilized; feel-wise, it feels both intimate and grand, if that makes any sense at all!). There are many opportunities to return to that grand clubhouse.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2006, 11:25:51 AM »
Cool!

I love mini-loops like that... Cuscowilla is divided into four loops all starting and ending at the clubhouse and I found that to be exceedingly cool.  Man the Oakmont members must have a lot of fun doing these...

TH

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2006, 11:45:48 AM »
Yet another bowling alley hole.  Why is it when other courses pull this trick out of the bag they are labelled penal, yet Oakmont is strategically great?

This is certainly a valid criticism, but I will add that while the fairways themselves are fairly narrow, the ball is very findable and playable in the rough. It isn't always simply punchouts or drops, like many courses that choose to use trees or other heavy  vegetation, water, or desert to perform the same task.

I can't answer the tree question objectively. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2006, 01:47:11 PM »
I like the look of this hole, but then I am a sucker for double dogleg par 5s. I like the blindness, and the apparent conundrum of getting the ball into position for the best approach.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2006, 02:03:43 PM »
Garland, I was primed for an argument, I don't know how to respond.

 :)

Happy Holidays.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 02:07:54 PM »
This is just a scary hole.  Each shot is demanding and when you get to green the trouble is not over.  I can't say that I like it.  I sure do respect its difficulty.  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 02:08:36 PM by tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2006, 02:10:35 PM »
I own Paul's book - in fact I read it more than any golf book I have - it's fun to go back to, and well... each hole writeup is pretty perfect length for restroom "library" sessions.   ;)

Thus I have been waiting for this hole to show up.

I believe there is no question as to its greatness.  But it's interesting to me the "intangible" is among the things that make it great for Jeff... that is, the coolness of having a story to tell, comparing to the greats that have walked before, etc.  Of course this belongs on another thread and I don't mean to deflect from the discussion of this great golf hole, but let's just score another point for me and take another one from "pure architecture is all that matters" Mucci.

 ;D

Tom,

Ron Whitten among other serious writers is always a bit non plussed to be forced into being a "toilet read." When I am writing, I have to avoid envisioning the reader, ah, assmimilating the info I provide.  At least when writing on golf club atlas, I figure the reader is at least in his PJ's, probably with a bowl of cheerios or a glass of wine in hand staring at the computer.  Or do some of you now use bathroom time to read gca on your pda/cell phones?

Other than that, glad you liked the piece.  I am of the belief that America's hobby is really either storytelling or bitching, and that we endulge in other pursuits simply to foster the main one.  Golf certainly fits the bill, since igetting a hole in one wouldn't be satisfying at all, without someone to lord it over. I mean share it with!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Huckaby

Re:Week 4: The 4th at Oakmont
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2006, 02:15:44 PM »
Jeff - great stuff - but man it is scary to think one could make this forum into a "toilet read"... but of course it can be done!

I did really enjoy your piece on this great golf hole, wherever I have read it.   ;D ;D


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