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Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Free Market and GCA
« on: December 17, 2006, 11:49:20 PM »
It is possible to assume, based on their ads for Cadillac, Mercedes, and Investment Management, etc, which abound on the TV Golf coverage and in the Glossy Golf Magazines, that the assumed demographic are Free Market Believers? And By FMBelievers I mean - that one believes that one can allow the market to decide what is good or bad, appropriate or inappropriate, moral or immoral, depending upon the market response to various proposals... If this is the case, is it possible to then assume that editorial values, especially when it comes to evaluating the merits of new golf courses, or golf courses chosen by tournament sponsors, may be somewhat compromised by the idea that 'what the market dictates' can't be bad? Especially if 'serious' investors are involved?

ForkaB

Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 12:58:05 AM »
In a word, Lloyd, "yes."

Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no socialists in Mackenzie bunkers--except in Scotland, of course..... :)

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 06:19:44 AM »
Lloyd - I suspect we are already too old to embark upon a discussion about the role and limits of the free market!

The way you characterise Free Market Believers suggests you believe there is some sort of fundamentalism in these people's beliefs. Of course, no sane person wants to be labelled a fundamentalist. But there is no shame in believing in free markets - and as someone who has spent the last twelve years living in the UK, a country which still retains a profoundly ambiguous attitude to markets, and a huge affection for the state, I say that with as much feeling as I can muster.

As to your overall argument - that the golf demographic affects which new courses get praised, and where tournaments are held - and that editorial values are somehow compromised, I would make two points:

- you seem to imply that the editorial staff of these publications/TV know that there exists something better out there (lets call it the type of courses and architects who this board approves of), but they call it differently because of sponsor/commercial considerations. I don't think that is the case - the more obvious explanation is that they (and 98% of golfers) think the new courses they praise are wonderful, and that most tournament venues are wonderful. They are simply ignorant of your/my/our perspective - not bowing to the altar of FM fundamentalism ~(this is not to say that most golfers are not purchasers of Cadillacs, mutual funds etc - they are, but I think it is a different point).

- on the point of editorial values being compromised - relative to what? All publications are in thrall to some or other ideology...I am not sure golf publications are any worse. Some of the most estimable organs of the British media wake up every morning with hugely defined worldviews which massively influences how they report the world. But I suppose that is a topic for another day!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 07:14:49 AM »
Lloyd, maybe not entirely a free market. If they really trusted the market, they wouldn't need to shape and influence people's taste, judgment and aesthetics with advertising. Esp. since advertising is rarely just about what the product itself does and includes more about the aura or benefits of owning the product as perceived by others, it's fair to say that advertisers are not above trying to influence and shape taste and judgment. In other wortds, ads are about the struggle for a consumer's mind. So maybe there's a chance for debate, education and a sense of good and bad after all.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 09:24:34 AM »
In a word, Lloyd, "yes."

Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no socialists in Mackenzie bunkers--except in Scotland, of course..... :)

Rich, I just read MacK suggesting that Golf could guard us against Bolshevism!!

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 09:31:40 AM »
Philip
I didn't mean to imply anything, certainly not any kind of conspiracy.
What I'm thinking is - Are there not those who believe that the market is better at making the decisions of state than Government? If so, would those people also believe that a commercial enterprise to build a 'fabulous' golf course is more likely to succeed if the market decides what type of golf course it is?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 11:33:46 AM »
Are there not those who believe that the market is better at making the decisions of state than Government? If so, would those people also believe that a commercial enterprise to build a 'fabulous' golf course is more likely to succeed if the market decides what type of golf course it is?

Sounds to me like the old line about "you don't want to see sausage being made..." or some such line.

We may know what we like, but we don't really know how you get there. If you ask me to create it I'll probably f### it up.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 12:26:54 PM »
It is possible to assume, based on their ads for Cadillac, Mercedes, and Investment Management, etc, which abound on the TV Golf coverage and in the Glossy Golf Magazines, that the assumed demographic are Free Market Believers? And By FMBelievers I mean - that one believes that one can allow the market to decide what is good or bad, appropriate or inappropriate, moral or immoral, depending upon the market response to various proposals... If this is the case, is it possible to then assume that editorial values, especially when it comes to evaluating the merits of new golf courses, or golf courses chosen by tournament sponsors, may be somewhat compromised by the idea that 'what the market dictates' can't be bad? Especially if 'serious' investors are involved?

Lloyd,

Mostly I agree with Brad Klein's assessment, with regard to the fact that 'markets' are never truly free. i.e. over $640bm a year is spent by American companies attempting to influence the activities of markets.

Having spent a chunks of that myself on behalf of such esteemed companies as Apple Computer, VISA, MCI (Before everyone went to jail), Fedex, GM etc. they all expected something in return for their investment. One of the ways they improve the return on their marketing investment is to place marketing messages in front of the kind of people who can and will buy their product. If golf did not attract the kind of people who can buy Mercedes and Cadillacs or invest their money with large financial companies, we wouldn't see quite as much of it on the TV as we do.

It's fair enough to say that you won't see a lot of criticism of these companies and their products during these telecasts... on the other hand, I don't think that some ads for Cadillac during the Masters on CBS means it's hands off for the entire Viacom media empire when it comes to detailing GM's woes.

Every marketplace of ideas has it's own parameters and guidelines. Criticising Tom Doak and C&C on GCA.com would yield about the same result as Peter Kessler taking on Arnold Palmer on the Golf Channel. Each community will attempt to enforce their standards on participants. That's more human nature than market forces.

In terms of the golf courses that get built and praised these days obviously there exists a range of opinions. It seems as if our group mostly prefers the investment to be reflected in the condition and character of the golf course. On the other hand, if you are married to the standard issue American suburban housewife, you might find your ear being bent over the availability of family amenities, a pool, tennis courts etc. at that point you are straddling two 'marketplaces of ideas'. Not always a comfortable place to be...

PERSONAL HISTORY: When weighing up joining either Royal Sydney or New South Wales, my grandfather was so traumatised by the idea of his offspring playing golf at a course with tennis courts he immediately sent me a check for the entrance fee and set up an interview with the head of the NSWGC membership committee. Like the majority of marketplace 'decisions,' this one was effectively resolved the same way. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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ForkaB

Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 12:31:15 PM »
In a word, Lloyd, "yes."

Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no socialists in Mackenzie bunkers--except in Scotland, of course..... :)

Rich, I just read MacK suggesting that Golf could guard us against Bolshevism!!

Maybe that's why he built those bunkers with all those nooks and crannies--great for sniping at them invading Russkies!


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 12:32:27 PM »
I'd say the free market had it's chances to shine begining in 1983. The product devolved to such a level that marketshare appears to have been lost.

Now, it's the free market's turn to turn things around with better, more thoughtful designs.

Which it apparently has done nicely.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 03:20:03 PM »
Mark;  I'm shocked that someone would be audacious enough to cite Keynes in a thread devoted to "free markets."

More seriously, in evaluating the "market" what product are we selling?  Are we selling golf?  Are we selling real estate connected to the golfing experience including views from the family room?  Are we selling a '' country club experience"?  Are we selling the status  associated with membership in an exclusive club?  The answers to the questions above help to define the market and influence the decisions made by those seeking to sell their product.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Free Market and GCA
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 10:05:30 AM »
SL,

You are right, I was only referring to a segment of the market.  That would be the segment that generates the most discussion on this board: "world-class courses." ;)

Cheers,
Mark

Even the market for world class 'golf courses' waxes and wains.

Back in the 70s, with the right recommendations, you could walk into many Sandbelt courses (except RM) with the entrance fee and be playing in 6-12 months. $500 was all it cost to immediately join a club in Sydney now in the top 35 in the world. Now, it's more like a 12-14 year wait unless someone in your family is already a member.

Similarly, I have heard stories that Essex County Club (imho, better than the standard Clyde/Squirrel nines at TCC) and a few other 'world class' courses in Massachusetts are casting about for members. This is due to the fact that the white non-Hispanic population (i.e. 95% of most golf club members) has dropped by over 250,000 in the last 5 years. Market forces in the form of jobs and opportunities moving out of Massachusetts + new developments like Granite Links, Boston Golf Club and TPC of Boston have negated the "attractions" of the old line New England country club courses. On the other hand, perhaps the people now making real money in our state don't want their fellow members looking down their noses at the way they hold their tea-cup. Perhaps the idea of "conforming" to a mode of social behavior during your leisure time is losing its appeal.

In the minds of these people, TPC of Boston is more of a "championship course'  than say Myopia Hunt Club. Although you don't get John Updike in your foursome at TPC Boston.  :)
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