Should there be finite distances for template par 3 holes ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony Butler,

The 11th at TOC sits right on the water where WIND may be THE critical element in the play of the hole.

Many, if not most Eden's do not enjoy that luxury.

Still, at approximately 170 yards, the hole presents a challenge to 99 % of the golfers, especially when hole locations are brought closer to the extreme features.

Wayne Morrisson,

While some of those courses may have been "Championship" courses at their outset, and we know that NGLA was one of them. (see the scores from tournaments held there from 1911 to 1924.)  The members were content to leave them intact and not embark upon the distance and feature race to keep them on the cutting edge of competitive "championship" golf.

As to you comment about Forsgate, I think it's a great golf course, irrespective of the amount of dirt moved.

You seem to equate the amount of dirt moved with the ultimate merit of a golf course.

I think the ultimate merit of a golf course depends upon the FINAL product, and NOT in how the final product was brought into existance.

And, the amount of dirt moved can be site dependent.

Just ask Tom Doak about his golf course in Lubbock, Texas.

I like good to great golf courses and really don't care about the method by which they're built.

[wsmorrison]

"As to you comment about Forsgate, I think it's a great golf course, irrespective of the amount of dirt moved.

You seem to equate the amount of dirt moved with the ultimate merit of a golf course.

I think the ultimate merit of a golf course depends upon the FINAL product, and NOT in how the final product was brought into existance."

I guess I wasn't clear in my attempt to discuss my point.  I do not have any problem at all in the amount of dirt moved or engineering done to create a great golf course.  My own taste is such that I do not like leaving the manufactured look.  There is little to no naturalism practiced.  You can look at Flynn's Cascades and Indian Creek projects.   The Lido course is the only project that equals or exceeds the engineering involved yet Flynn made his courses blend into the surrounds, tieing in the lines to nearby and distant features in a way that was in harmony with the surroundings and not in contrast.  It is the contrast of the manufactured with the natural that doesn't appeal to me, not the amount of earth moved.  The manufactured look appeals to others and that is not surprising.  Some people appreciate Frank Lloyd Wright more than Venturi and Rauch.  Some people like Trumbauer and others like Courbousier.  I don't think anyone is wrong in their opinion.  I just hope others feel the same way.  Macdonald and to a lesser extent Raynor and Banks created excellent works.  I think they there are many areas where their work can be criticized.  I guess I didn't do a very good job in explaining my perspective.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

And you have no excuse.

You didn't camp out at the Philadephia Zoo Saturday night and walk the equivalent of 72 holes on Saturday & Sunday.

Arrive 6:30 pm.  Indoctrination 7:30, Activities 8:30, night time tour 9:30, more activities 11:00, bedtime 12:30 (right)  
Up at 6:30, breakfast at 7:30, 1st tour at 8:30, second tour at 11:30, bolt for home at 1:30, arrive 3:30.  NFL on 3:31.
Lights out 9:30.  Facelick 3:30, wakeup 7:00

Two comments and questions.
Neither the city or the state provide any funding for the Philadelphia Zoo.  Why ?

There's no interchange between I 95 and I 276.   Why ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

With respect to the manufactured look, I wonder if that wasn't site dependent for CBM, SR and CB.

If you read "Scotland's Gift" CBM describes NGLA's site as swampy and so overgrown with brush that they had to ride horses.  Since there weren't environmental issues, I wonder if those guys didn't just fill in the swamps with dirt and rock, and plenty of it.  Enought to eliminate any possibility of water becoming a factor in the future.

It would seem to explain some of the elevated features, especially the greens and tees.
And, it might explain some of the depressions found throughout some sites.  That may have been where the needed fill was mined.

[wsmorrison]

While I didn't get any father-of-the-year points like you did this weekend...I did walk 18 holes on Saturday and Sunday.  Saturday was gorgeous and I'm sorry you couldn't join us.

The oldest zoo in the nation gets shorted by the state and city.  The city is so screwed up, the zoo is best off not relying on them for anything.  The state should pony up some money though.  Private funds aren't working...they're giving up the elephants because they can't keep them as they should.  Anybody need a couple of African elephants?

476 is the interchange between 276 (PA turnpike) and 95.  It is too far south and west for you going to the zoo.  Maybe you should have taken 95 to the city.  Not sure from your neck of the woods which is the best way to go.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I don't have the same issues for NGLA as for the majority of others.  NGLA was a first in this country and except for the greens, there isn't an overt manufactured look.  However, at most Raynors (where CBM was not involved and except for most of Westhampton) and Banks there is no denying that naturalism was ignored and the architecture less evolved.  They stuck in a narrow framework and it worked for them as far as commissions but not as artists.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Morrison,

Have you played The Knoll, Hackensack, Essex County East, or the 4th nine at Montclair ?

If not, you should visit with me this summer, it might change your opinion of Banks.

[wsmorrison]

I have not, Pat.  I'd be delighted to play there with you this summer.  Will you do me the honor of coming down to Philadelphia for some counterpoint Flynns?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have not, Pat.  I'd be delighted to play there with you this summer.  Will you do me the honor of coming down to Philadelphia for some counterpoint Flynns?

Agreed,

Wayne,

What do you think of the phrase, and concept, of the architect designing a golf course such that the golfer will hit every club in the bag ?

Is that a more global form of a template ?

Is it sound thinking ?

Is it not the supreme test with respect to the examination of the golfer's complete skills ?

If you say "yes", then, isn't a template hole merely part of that examination ?

And, if you say "no", isn't it still a test, part of the examination intended by the architect ?

[wsmorrison]

"What do you think of the phrase, and concept, of the architect designing a golf course such that the golfer will hit every club in the bag ?"

Pat,
How many clubs were in the bag during the classic era?  But seriously, folks.  I do think architecture that requires the fullest repetoir of shot testing in terms of distance, shot shape and trajectory is among the best.  That is very general though and is hardly comparable to templates, even if they aren't exact replicas of the original or each other.

Templates are not the supreme test of an architect's skills.  It is an artifice that less creative (read engineers) would require and limits creativity.  Why makes template holes better than non-template holes on a given site?  Forget about them being an examination of a golfer, what about them being an examination for the architect?  Leaning on overtly artificial features, both in macro construction and in internal contours (horsehoes, thumbprints, etc) is weak.  They definitely have a fun factor, but they offend my sensibilities.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat-

I am just going to answer the orginal question.

I do not think there should be finite distances for template par 3 holes.

I do think however they should stay true to their orginal design.

I love playing template holes. I like playing them even more at various distances.
For example, two eden holes, at GCGC and NGLA. Two different distances, I hit 8 iron last at NGLA and 5 iron at GC.  I think thats awesome that I can play the same type of hole with a different club.

We have a Redan at my home course right now here in North Carolina. I am not sure if the architect knew wht he was doing, but this hole has some serious Redan like qualities, I have been meaning to post a picture of the hole, and get some input from the treehouse.

The hole can be played (from the mens tees) at two different yardages, 167, 214. The hole plays about 7-10yds longer due to uphill. Either tee you play the hole at you still have to play the hole like any other Redan in the world.
The hole isn't exactly like that at Shinnecock, National, Fishers, Southampton. However still plays like a Redan regardless of the yardage.

-Mike

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony Butler,

The 11th at TOC sits right on the water where WIND may be THE critical element in the play of the hole.

Many, if not most Eden's do not enjoy that luxury.

No weather? More length or more undulations in the green to increase the challenge of two-putting from what you might call the 'bail-out' area on the green from a tight pin placement.