PV in Reverse

[SPDB]

Has anybody played the course in reverse? I seem to recall that the club runs a late season one-day tournament where the course is played in reverse. I think its played from green to tee, which will make this thread pretty boring.

How is it set up? If its not simply green to tee, some of the transitions seem downright impossible.

[AndrewB]

I don't know anything about the actual playing of Pine Valley Golf Club in reverse, but apparently this is something that Crump wanted.  From Thomas MacWood's wonderful portrait of George Arthur Crump:

In a July Crump receives a letter Walter Travis, he proposes an article on Crump’s desire to have Pine Valley played in reverse. 'I have in mind illustrating some of them [various holes] in The American Golfer in connection with a brief account of what you propose doing in this direction…'

In the article (August 1915) Travis wrote, 'Nature has been centuries in preparing this ideal tract for the hand of man in the ultimate creation of a real golf course, and man, in the person of George Crump, more particular, aided by other Philadelphia enthusiasts, has carved out a links which is just sure as anything to be one of the best—if not the very best—this country can justly be proud of. Laid out some two years ago by Mr. H.S. Colt, the eminent British authority on golf course architecture, sufficient progress has been made to justify anticipation of a most brilliant future…an unparalleled forward step has been taken by the projectors in arranging to make this the first course in the country capable of being played two ways—the regular way and in reverse order, making practically two distinct courses in one…with the capable assistance of Mr. Crump a comprehensive plan has finally evolved…'

It is difficult to say what might have inspired this scheme, perhaps St. Andrews, but whatever the case Crump’s idea had a major impact upon Travis. He would go on to design two reversible golf courses—Potomac Park (1916) and Westchester (1919).

I'd also be interested to hear the details of how Crump's wishes for the course to be played in reverse have been carried out.

[JESII]

If my memory serves me (which would be a surprise in and of itself) they used to play the course in recerse on the Friday following Thansgiving. Not sure about the entire routing, but the first hole was from beside the 18th green to the 17th green. On its own that would suggest they played from green-to-green, but like I said, that is the only hole I know of. I have no idea if they still do this or why they may have stopped.


How about 14 green to 13 green?  

[TEPaul]

There is a day some of the members attempt to play the course in reverse somehow. If anyone wants to know how they do that I sure know who to ask.

In 1915 Travis did get all gung-ho about offering a plan (hole designs) of how PV could be played in reverse. Travis, the editor of the magazine a few of those reverse hole drawings was run in really got into it. He says himself it was something he almost lost sleep over trying to work out.

Obviously Geo Crump let him do that, perhaps even encouraged him to do it but the truth and the fact is that in the end, like a lot of advice that Crump didn't seem to mind others offering him regarding PV, he just didn't do it in the end. Obviously he didn't want to for whatever his reasonss.

I have about 3-4 of those Travis reverse hole drawings. He may've only done a few---not the entire course.

[SPDB]

JES II:

How about from 15 Green to 14 Green? That would make the brutal 15th in its ordinary direction seem like child's play. You would have to play to the very end (beginning) of the fairway in order to give yourself, what, a 200 yard shot at the green (over the stand of trees between the 15th tee and 14th green)?

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Are you kidding me? that shot is a piece of cake. Think about most of the others!  

The coolest one is playing from #5 green down to #4 green even though it can get pretty messy and frankly expensive too with broken windows and shit.

[CHrisB]

Anyone who hits the 5th green in regulation teeing off from #6 green gets a free bowl of turtle soup...

[JESII]

Rumor had it that Charlie was the only person capable of hitting the first green (18 green to 17 green) in regulation. Thinking about it, that's damn impressive.

6 to 5 would definitely be an adventure.

[SPDB]

I think 6 to 5 wouldn't be challenging relative to some of the others (although it would involve considerable property risk to the cottage of a certain one-time GCA poster).

For my money, I still think 15 to 14 would be next to impossible.

You have to throw out par, b/c some of the routes needed to be taken are absurd. Like, for example, 12 to 11 green.
I think you would need to
1) go down 12 fairway
2) lay up onto 7 in from of the HHA
3) play your next shot down to the bottom of the hill on 8 fairway, and lastly
4) lob it up to 11 green.

I guess conceivably you could skip step 2 and take it over the halfway house down 8 fairway.

Funny that 16 to 15 would play almost identically to the 15 in normal direction, with the exception of the tee shot angle ( the smart play being to lob your tee shot over to 15 fairway, instead of going back up 16).

Some of this seems impossible, but pretty darn fun to think of all the routes.

[JESII]

It would be possible for a strong hitter to ley up in the rough between #12 tee and fairway and from there hit to the 11th green. Not easy, but the yardage from #12 tee to #11 green is probably no more than 120 yards, so 80 on top of that would be feasible.

15 to 14 would be brutal, no question. Once you lay up to the end of the fairway you're left with a strong downhill lie, very strong.


In the Crump this year on #7 I hooked my second shot and found it against a trunk in those left trees. I figured my best option to finish the hole was to take an unplayable and go back down the 8th fairway (probably 75 yards behind where my ball sat) and take my chances. Smashed a 4 iron over the trees onto the green and nearly made the 40 footer for par...

[CHrisB]

I think 6 to 5 wouldn't be challenging relative to some of the others (although it would involve considerable property risk to the cottage of a certain one-time GCA poster).

Didn't say 6 to 5 would be the most challenging--I said that hitting that green in 2 deserves a free bowl of turtle soup because of the severe back-to-front slope of the 5th green. How could you hit and hold that green from that angle?

Same for 18 to 17 now that JES mentions it.

[SPDB]

If Charlie R. can hit the 17th in regulation from the 18th green that is an absolutely unbelievable accomplishment. I'm not one to doubt Mr. Raudenbush, but it is a pretty tremendous poke to make the fairway from the new back tee on 18, which is roughly even with the 17th green (but well below it). Bearing in mind that the tee shot on 18 is significantly downhill, how is it possible then to hit the 17th green coming the other direction?

When they designed the 18th, I can only surmise that Crump/Colt must have had the Alps hole in Prestwick in mind for the reverse play of the hole.  

Here is a shot from the tee (i.e. the 18th green)

[TEPaul]

Guys, guys!!

You want to hear something really extraordinary??

What do you think PV would be like, and would look like, if they took out all the trees necessary that would make it relatively possible to play that golf couse in reverse??

Think about it??

Want to go hole by hole in reverse and talk about it??  

[JESII]

SPDB,

I didn't see it, but did hear about it. Looking at it from the perspective of where the new 18th tee is makes it all the more impressive.

As far as it being an ALPS replica in reverse, that must mean that CBM was on board...as an advisor in the least...which should clearly mean he gets significant credit for the finished product since this was Crump's first course...


Tom Paul,

Sans trees, then the 6 green to 5 green as Chris Brauner pointed out would become one of the coolest holes I could imagine.

[TEPaul]

Actually there was an Alps feature planned at PV by Crump and in fact it is still there, on the right side of the far end of HHA on #7.

Crump (and Tillinghast?) had planned to turn #7 into a form of a double dogleg hole. One was supposed to drive out from the right side. From there Crump had planned to remove the entire left half of the fairway on the second half and put that fairway area over on the right. He'd already oriented the green out to the right side. The idea then was to not only hit a long second shot over HHA but for the best angle for the 3rd shot in one had to hit the ball over a fairly big Alps feature at the far end of HHA.  

[JESII]

Tom,

The current right edge of HHA is a bit more "blown out" and up than the center and left edges. Possibly left over from what you describe?

Was the "double-dogleg" orientation supposed to play to the current green site? Was the green complex much different than today's? What was the motivation to not create the hole you describe?

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually there was an Alps feature planned at PV by Crump and in fact it is still there, on the right side of the far end of HHA on #7.

Crump (and Tillinghast?) had planned to turn #7 into a form of a double dogleg hole. One was supposed to drive out from the right side. From there Crump had planned to remove the entire left half of the fairway on the second half and put that fairway area over on the right. He'd already oriented the green out to the right side. The idea then was to not only hit a long second shot over HHA but for the best angle for the 3rd shot in one had to hit the ball over a fairly big Alps feature at the far end of HHA.  

Tom Paul,

Isn't the Alps feature you allude to just another "piece of the puzzle", which strongly suggests to me that Charles Blair Macdonald and HJ Whigham, at the very minimum, ADVISED Pine Valley, and I'm also going to strongly imply that they had something to do with the routing, site selection, hole features, and grow-in process.

You can't prove me wrong, Tom, so I must be right!  

[TEPaul]

"The current right edge of HHA is a bit more "blown out" and up than the center and left edges. Possibly left over from what you describe?"

Sully:

It isn't nearly as pronounced as it once was. There's a good photo of it from the old days around here somewhere.

"Was the "double-dogleg" orientation supposed to play to the current green site? Was the green complex much different than today's? What was the motivation to not create the hole you describe?"

Yes, it was to the current green which was reworked some particularly along its left side to orient it out to the right. I think that big bunker along the left side of that green is from Alison. Their wasn't any motivation not to create the double dogleg. That's what Crump wanted to do and was beginning to do when he died suddenly.

[JESII]

I believe it Tom. The only Alps feature I have seen first hand is Ardmore Ave. to the left of the half-way house at Merion, but overgrowth seems to have diminished its full effect...

 

[archie_struthers]

 

Gentleman...Merry Christmas to all!!!!

I'm getting quite old and my memory is foggy but did caddy more than a few times in the backwards tournament in my youth at PV.  If memory serves they did not play green to green but rather green to tee.......I'll call a few buddies for verification but that is how I remember it.  

This being said there are lots of great shots, for example, five green to tee, four green tee shot, up the hill, sixteen over the big bunker on the second shot etc,etc.

Often the key was trying to figure out the right club on the lay-up , as we didn't have the same yardage information and aids as todays loopers.  

[Ran Morrissett]

Ernie Ransome was made aware of this thread and a friend of his sent me this memo from Mr. Ransome in an effort to provide accurate information. Here it is:


Memo from  ERNEST L. RANSOME, III
 
PINE VALLEY PLAYED BACKWARDS
 
I was President of Pine Valley from 1977 until 1988.  It was during that time that I started the Backwards Tournament which was played on the Saturday after Thanksgiving for, I think, 7 years.
 
The first year we played with 4 players in each group and they all played their own ball.  This took a long time, so we changed the format the following year to a 4 man scramble which was much more fun.
 
We played from green to green and where we couldn’t get to the other green we put a cup and a flag on the tee for that green and cut the grass down.
 
The set up was as follows:
 
              1.       18 green to 17 green – tough hole
              2.       17 green to 16 green
              3.       16 green to 16 tee
              4.       15 green to 14 green – tough 3rd shot
              5.       14 green to 13 green – slight dog-leg par 3
              6.       13 green to 13 tee
              7.       12 green to 12 tee
              8.       11 green to 10 green
              9.       10 green to 9 green
            10.       9 green to 8 green
            11.       8 green to 7 green – interesting hole
            12.       7 green to 6 green
            13.       6 green to 6 tee
            14.       5 green to 5 tee
            15.       4 green to 3 green
            16.       3 green to 2 green
            17.       2 green to 1 green
            18.       1 green to 18 green – tough 2nd shot
 
It was great fun.  Winning scores were 66 or 65.  In event of a tie we had a 4 man team alternate putt contest in the Club House.  It started in the Board Room to the dining room to the great room then back to the Board Room, putting finally to a chalk drawn circle on the floor – tough to stop the ball in the circle.  Also, all of the furniture was left in place in all rooms.  Some interesting putts.  

[CHrisB]

Now there's a course I'd like to play!

Every shot would be interesting, but a couple interesting shots that come to mind:

1. The tee shot from the 3rd green up to the 2nd green--what a small landing area to try to keep it from going down the slope over the green.

2. The tee shot from the 7th green toward the 6th--if you tee off from the front fringe, I believe it is 260+ to carry HHA; otherwise you have to lay up, hit it into HHA, or maybe try to hit down the 8th fairway?

[SPDB]

Will you look at that ?
In the same thread I've managed to get Ernie Ransome's ear and Ran Morrissett's fingers. What a personal accomplishment to end the year.

[JESII]

Congratulations indeed!

Can you imagine trying to stop a ball inside a chalk circle on a smooth carpet after the requisite 18 drinks during the regular round.