[T_MacWood]

We often think of these golden age architects creating by use of horse and scoop, but there were quite a few who used heavy equipment, particularly late in the career: Ross, MacKenzie, Raynor, Langford etc

"In these days of steam shovels and modern improvements, it is possible to do wonderful things on flat, level country.
I have come to the conclusion that I prefer to lay out a course on level land.
The Seminole course near Palm Beach is an example of what can be done with that type of terrain.
I don't say its the best I have ever designed. Nevertheless, I like it very much."

It is obvious Ross is excited about the possibilities. Incidently this is the quote that has been repeatedly distorted and misinterpreted by Pat Mucci.

[JESII]

This ought to be good...


Tom,

Have you seen the Seminole proprty in person?

If you are suggesting this quote from Ross implies that the land is flat you are going to be disappointed when you see the course.

Tom Paul will be able shed some light on the engineering project that made a golf course possible on that site. Drainage canals and holding ponds etc...

If, like Moriarty on the Merion thread, you are just throwing this out there in hopes of spurring conversation (I question that was his actual motive), you will find out that Seminole is not flat, but does have a large flat area in the middle.

[T_MacWood]

John
No, but I'm pretty sure Ross has...why?

[JESII]

I don't know Terry,

What do you think Ross means about the topography of the Seminole property with that quote you posted?

[T_MacWood]

I'm sorry...I really don't know what your name is. Sully? Jerry Sullivan?

Jerry
I know what the quote doesn't say: It doesn't say the entire property at Seminole is/was flat or level.

IMO the quote's main purpose seems to be relaying the wonderful possibities that steam shovels can provide, especially on flat or level ground. And that Seminole is a good example of what can be done on that type of terrain...I think a reasonable person would look to the large flat area you described between the primary dune and the ridge (secondary dune) on the far west of the property as the area Ross was referring to at Seminole.

To claim that Ross was saying Seminole is completely flat, or was completely flat, is an attempt to make the case that Ross was an idiot.

[JESII]

I'd agree with you on all points Ted.

It's interesting to me that felt unimpressed with his finished product. I think it's a great course.

What's also interesting is that the "flat-land" holes do not reflect a tremendous amount of earth moving...other than what had to be done for drainage (which may well have been significant...and the holes using the two dune lines are clearly the best in my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

Seminole is great because the hilly bits were used so well, and because all that equipment allowed something okay to be done with the parts that otherwise wouldn't have drained.

As for Ross's excitement about heavy equipment, I'm not sure it is artistic excitement so much as business excitement -- it allowed him to ply his trade in a lot of places where it was previously not feasible.  Tom Fazio has made the same point.

[JESII]

Tom

I agree about the specifics at Seminole but in the Ross quote he clearly states he "prefers to lay out a course on level land", as opposed to implying that his field of opportunities is now greater. Can you think of any reason that would be the case...that designing on flat ground would be preferred?

[Tim Copeland]

Seminole is great because the hilly bits were used so well, and because all that equipment allowed something okay to be done with the parts that otherwise wouldn't have drained.

As for Ross's excitement about heavy equipment, I'm not sure it is artistic excitement so much as business excitement -- it allowed him to ply his trade in a lot of places where it was previously not feasible.  Tom Fazio has made the same point.

I thought the "change order" allowed Fazio to ply his trade.............

[Tom_Doak]

JES:  You are right that is what he said.  It could be just that it's easier to make things work out the way you want when the site is relatively gentle ... getting a variety of directional changes into the course is much easier when it's flattish.  

Remember, too, that Ross generally worked with 110-140 acres and not 200 like we do today, so when he tackled hilly property he did not often have the luxury to work around the tougher parts of it ... and the earthmoving equipment wasn't so big that it allowed him to fix stuff.

Indeed, that is the main difference between Ross's quote and what Tom Fazio would say today ... Ross would say the earthmoving equipment helped him make flattish ground interesting, whereas Fazio would say today's equipment helps make steep sites feasible.

[JESII]

That makes sense about flat ground giving the architect more creative control.

Seminole is an interesting study in that it sort of has both extremes...very flat and very steep in a small area.

[John_Cullum]

Ross liked push up greens. That would be much easier working from level ground.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Actually, they would seem easier on gently rolling ground, where he could take dirt from the high side and put it in the low.  On truly flat ground , there is no material to push up and it has to be hauled in.  Of course, that was also easier with modern earthmoving equipment.

[T_MacWood]

What is typically done with the material taken from excavating ponds?

[paul cowley]

What is typically done with the material taken from excavating ponds?

Its taken to higher areas where it is needed.

Jeff and John and et al too....the Ross course we are restoring in Brunswick Ga. has become a really fascinating 80 year old untouched time capsule.
All 18 greens were push ups on level but sandy and draining terrain.

Ross capped the seed bed layer with an extremely black sandy soil that was a by product from the local Hercules plant.
Excavating the greens to the original levels has become a kind of 'duh, where do we stop?' experience [which is being handled by extremely competent people].
 ....and although the detailed plans probably were mailed in, most greens are really very good to excellent, and a great study in how one can make 18 push up greens into something special.

[TEPaul]

"It is obvious Ross is excited about the possibilities. Incidently this is the quote that has been repeatedly distorted and misinterpreted by Pat Mucci."

I think that remark is pretty unnecessary, Tom MacWood. Pat Mucci didn't distort or misinterpret anything about Seminole not being flat. All he ever said is the entire site of Seminole is not flat by a long shot.

But if your intention with this thread is to determine what exactly Ross meant by that quote about Seminole, then that could be a potentially interesting question.

I'm not certain of it but I believe that the original site of Seminole may've had flatland area that was remarkably low to sea level, and actual sea level at Seminole isn't more that 400 yards away from the middle of the golf course.

I've never seen before and after topo maps of Seminole but I do know that Ross created one of the more unique back-flush general drainage systems on that site that had been known at that particular time.

I've heard that originally the majority of that site (the entire middle of the course sans the east and west dune ridges) could've been no more than two or so feet above sea level that is actually just over the eastern dune ridge. If that's true that is basically too low to be safe long-term so some sort of cut and fill and flush drainage system probably needed to be created on most of the course. A good description of the sophistication of the Seminole water management system is in Brad Klein's book.

Does that mean Ross used massive steamshovels and earth moving equipment to dredge and fill? In other words, did he basically cut and fill the middle of that site? My bet is that he did. The most obvious indication of that today is the prevalent drainage cuts through the middle of the course mostly on an east to west axis. The large pond in the middle of the course must've been a fairly massive cut operation in and of itself basically evened out to some extent by the prevalent drainage cuts all over the site to get water out of the middle of the course requiring steam shovels on a large scale.

The real giveaway to what-all Ross may've done on that site and why is the berm running along the southern side of the property on hole #9. If one just looked at it (and it is not particularly obvious) one might wonder what it was done for or why it was ever necessary.

In my opinion, Ross really did his homework on the original site of Seminole and came up with a massive whole course cut and fill back-flush drainage system that may've been fairly unique for that time and place. Had he not done that I suspect the course could've been an enduring headache due to truly problematic and constant drainage problems (wetness in the middle of the course).

The hurricane last year was something of an anomoly and even with what Ross did with that site drainage-wise look what it did to the course.

I think one might be going down the wrong road if they assume Ross used steamshovels and earthmoving equipment to just undulate the middle of that course to create rolling topography or noticeable pushed up features such as greens. He didn't do that at all. He probably just used steamshovels and earthmoving to solve an inherent drainage problem due to most of the site being dangerously close to sea-level that is right over the Eastern dune---ie the Atlantic Ocean.  

[T_MacWood]

What is typically done with the material taken from excavating ponds?

Its taken to higher areas where it is needed.

Jeff and John and et al too....the Ross course we are restoring in Brunswick Ga. has become a really fascinating 80 year old untouched time capsule.
All 18 greens were push ups on level but sandy and draining terrain.

Ross capped the seed bed layer with an extremely black sandy soil that was a by product from the local Hercules plant.
Excavating the greens to the original levels has become a kind of 'duh, where do we stop?' experience [which is being handled by extremely competent people].
 ....and although the detailed plans probably were mailed in, most greens are really very good to excellent, and a great study in how one can make 18 push up greens into something special.

From what I've read the Seminole project was a pretty sophisticated drainage plan. A series of ponds, drainage ditches, pumps and minipulated service drainage. I'm no hydrology expert - although I did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night - but I'd imagine the mechanized equipment helped to make it possible.

[paul cowley]

Since I have only been there once, and it really wasn't to view the drainage system...but if I had to guess about the drainage system devised for the site [and I really hate to hazard guesses here]...but if I were to compare it too similar ones I do have experience with, my gut feeling would be that; [whew ]

Ross probably devised a system that allowed for the site to drain naturally on all occasions with the exception of a lot of water occurring at higher tides [with the ultimate non draining event being a  hurricane deluge with an accompianing storm surge].
It wouldn't surprise me if he created his lowest outfall elevation for the site around 3' above sea level and probably controlled this with some kind of weir system that would allow for the course to lower the level below 3' when needed, and also raise it higher to keep out water from off site in higher tidal events [which is when a pump system of some sort would need to lower it from the course by pumping it off site].
Nowadays we use flapper valves [which allow for water to only move in one direction] combined with weirs or similar devices to control water flow on and off site, but the methodology in his time was commonly used in places like rice fields [which use flood gates].

Water management for the site or similar ones are usually designed for the 'norm', especially if construction cost is a consideration. Or one could dig massive borrow pits and use the dirt to raise all the low areas up 4 to 5' and then not have to worry as much about drainage.
And I can assume cost was a factor there......and that the existing site didn't require or need a Shadow Creek type budget [ hell, or even a Lido].

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:  Then Ross was no Pete Dye.  For the TPC at Sawgrass, Pete dug a moat around the entire golf course and set up a pump station to take water out of the moat and pump it into the Intercoastal Waterway, so that the water table inside the golf course could be kept low.  (The purpose of all this was to save the trees which otherwise would have been lower than the fairways and often wet.)  Anyway, if they see a big storm coming, the TPC will pump the moat down to one foot below sea level.

[paul cowley]

Tom....I had heard that before [maybe from you], and I think its a great example of Pete Dyes ability to think big and out of the box when confronted with a problem where most would opt for a more traditional solution....like 'well I guess we are going to have to cut down all the trees and then raise up all the low areas and then replant'.
The moat solution probably saved excavation quantities and money compared to a complete site fill.........but his decision obviously wasn't made from a fear of generating of dirt. He showed that talent later on the job when he built golfs first truly artificial dirt stadiums.

A lot of big, out of the box stuff going on with the course and the man who built it.

[TEPaul]

According to Brad Klein's book what Ross designed at Seminole was an irrigation system that essentially used an artesian well that kept fresh water circulating through the site while at the same time using a designed drainage system that could drain water off the site into a lake (Little Lake Worth) that's to the south below and off the property. Again the berm along the right side of the par 5 9th hole that has always been basically hidden in a line of Australian pines is one of the keys to keeping high tide water off the golf course in conjunction with the water pumping station that pumps water off the property into Little Lake Worth. If one went around the course and looked at the prevalent drainage ditches, the berm etc they probably did take quite a lot of steamshovel work.

Is this what Ross meant in that quote about about liking to work with flat land due to the increased sophistication of machinery? Who knows. My quess would be Ross probably meant the availablity of more sophisticated earthmoving equipment allowed him to work with sites that theretofore were impractical without the availabliity of such sophisticated earthmoving equipment.

[paul cowley]

Thanks TP for the info from Brads book and its reassuring that Ross and I might have read the property similarly when it came to drainage.

But back to the original quote; "In these days of steam shovels and modern improvements, it is possible to do wonderful things on flat, level country.
I have come to the conclusion that I prefer to lay out a course on level land.
The Seminole course near Palm Beach is an example of what can be done with that type of terrain.
I don't say its the best I have ever designed. Nevertheless, I like it very much." ....I find this to be a wonderfully simple statement about his conceptual design preference over other types of terrain he encountered.
Now if he had to further explain the quote [assume he was being grilled in the modern day by posters on GCA], the first thing he would qualify would be that in any type of soils heavier than pure sand hill stuff, the flat ground would have to have a favorable lowest drainage outfall compared to average minimum grade....probably a minimum of 8' difference.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I agree. I don't think there is much doubt that even though really interesting topography (rolling or highly topographical land in one form or another) can be great stuff in the natural aspects it can offer a good architect for interesting or even great holes and such. But as all architects know the flip side to that is that kind of land can present just as many architetural problems as it can architectural assets. On the other hand, flat land is basically the definition to those guys of that artistic phrase we call "clear clay"----eg the possibilities are endless and the inherent obstacles virtually nil.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is typically done with the material taken from excavating ponds?

From what I've read the Seminole project was a pretty sophisticated drainage plan.

What did you read that would lead you to that conclusion ?

Could you cite it for us ?

A series of ponds, drainage ditches, pumps and minipulated service drainage.

Try good old fashion elevation changes and gravity.

I'm no hydrology expert - although I did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night - but I'd imagine the mechanized equipment helped to make it possible.

Why would you imagine that mechanized equipment helped to make that possible ?

If you were familiar with the site you wouldn't make that statement.

Picture a bathtub with a centerline drain running down the middle.  That's pretty much how Seminole works.

This attempt of yours to become a revisionist historian on this particular issue is telling.  Me thinks Brutus doth protest too much.

You were FLAT out wrong, just admit it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I've never seen before and after topo maps of Seminole but I do know that Ross created one of the more unique back-flush general drainage systems on that site that had been known at that particular time.

I've heard that originally the majority of that site (the entire middle of the course sans the east and west dune ridges) could've been no more than two or so feet above sea level that is actually just over the eastern dune ridge. If that's true that is basically too low to be safe long-term so some sort of cut and fill and flush drainage system probably needed to be created on most of the course. A good description of the sophistication of the Seminole water management system is in Brad Klein's book.

TePaul,

I guess I don't know what a cut and fill and flush drainage system drainage system is.  I will have to read Brad's book again to read about it. I say all this because I played Seminole with Dye and he says to this day no one knows how it drains.  And, given he is a member and has engineered similar florida drainage systems, I think he would know, and not be putting on an act for my benefit.

Just sayin.....

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