A question for Tom Doak

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you had NO environmental or permiting issues and the use of the entire property, how would you have routed the golf course ?

If you could have designed TWO golf courses on the land, would you have designed one on the water and one inland, or two that have some of both.

Would you have used the western side of the property more ?

Thanks

[Paul Jones]

Patrick,

Are you referring to Sebonack (I am guessing) or Pacific Dunes?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Where are you talking about?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Sorry about that, I was referencing Sebonack.

[Tom_Doak]

Are you giving me the land for #18 at National as well?  Otherwise how would we have fit two golf courses onto our site?  There really isn't even enough room for 27 holes if you eliminated all of the environmental buffers (assuming you are not eliminating the road to the beach).

In general terms, if you have enough ground for two 18's, a decision such as you are talking about is one that would rest with the client.  I would advise him the pros and cons of both sides, but ultimately it's up to him whether to go for the best possible course plus a "B" course, or two which are equally very good.

[Dan Boerger]

Tom - I don't mean to burden you with questions or to hijack this thread, but I've been wondering about something along this line for a while.

Many hold (and rightfully so IMO) the NGLA as a extraordinary example of GCA. In addition to the "liability" concerns one would have with trying to replicate the 3rd hole elsewhere, what other (if there are other) parts of that layout would simply be illogical to replicate given today's market? - Dan

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

I think National is a great solution for that piece of land.  I wish I could say I would have done the same thing with it but I am probably not that good -- we'll never know.

In Bandon we will have a chance to think like Macdonald thought when he started National.  I almost wish that National did not exist because some will think we should recreate it, and yet the property in Bandon is different and the times are different and I am pretty sure I have much more talented help to build the course than C.B. Macdonald had when he built National.  I'm not sure what exactly we will do, you'll have to check back in two or three years to find out.

One thing I am sure of is that there WILL be a couple of big blind shots on the new course in Bandon because it is part of Macdonald's repertoire ... with caddies and with technology we should not have to worry too much about the safety issues.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

If Cold Spring Road was abandoned, and you had full use of the entire property, would you have made a case for more than 18 holes ?

If not, would you have prefered to route the course further down from # 12 and along the western water front as opposed to an inland routing ?

Sorry, I can't cede you # 18 at NGLA

Would you take a 36 hole project ?

If so, how would you differentiate the golf courses.
While I know the variations in the land can serperate them, what would you do, stylistically, to differentiate them ?

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   If this gets any more involved you are going to have to pay Tom a design fee.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Sure, I would take a 36-hole project.  I've done two courses in the same place once before (Stonewall, two 18's ten years apart with differing styles) and am supposed to do a second 18 at St. Andrews Beach in Australia (if it ever happens) and, of course, Bandon Dunes.  I'm sure we will do others, too.  I like that sort of challenge.

If the frontage along Cold Spring Harbor had been available, without restriction, certainly we would have used some of it.  It was clearly impossible so I never really looked at it very closely to be able to tell you what might have been done, but if you want I'll send you a copy of the map.

[Scott Szabo]

Dan:

I think National is a great solution for that piece of land.  I wish I could say I would have done the same thing with it but I am probably not that good -- we'll never know.
 

As for your last statement, I think your recent courses are a testimony that you are probably that good.

[Mark_F]

I would advise him the pros and cons of both sides, but ultimately it's up to him whether to go for the best possible course plus a "B" course, or two which are equally very good.

A classic dilemma.

Which do you think most clients would opt for?

If you thought Best plus a "B" was the perfect option, but a client was adamant on the two that are equally as good, do you think you would be able to do as good a job?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - Jeez I think a Bandon course celebrating the likes of Lido would be even more neat than celebrating National.  JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom - Jeez I think a Bandon course celebrating the likes of Lido would be even more neat than celebrating National.  JC

Jonathan,

Other than the Channel hole, what at Lido didn't appear first at NGLA ?

Tom Doak,

I'd appreciate receiving a copy of the map.

Thanks

[Bill_McBride]

Tom - Jeez I think a Bandon course celebrating the likes of Lido would be even more neat than celebrating National.  JC

Other than the Channel hole, what at Lido didn't appear first at NGLA ?

Raynor's Prize Dogleg and MacKenzie's Prize Winning Design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Raynor's prized dogleg bears a resemblance to a combination of the 7th and 14th at NGLA.   MacKenzie's hole also bears a resemblance to the Channel hole, but, you're correct, both of those holes were first introduced in their form at Lido

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Raynor's prized dogleg bears a resemblance to a combination of the 7th and 14th at NGLA.   MacKenzie's hole also bears a resemblance to the Channel hole, but, you're correct, both of those holes were first introduced in their form at Lido

Sometimes I daydream about somebody building a dead replica of the Lido.  

[Brad Klein]

Actually, Tom forgot to mention that in its original guise, the 3rd at NGLA was actually much wider than it is even today, with more room down the right side, which would reduce to some extent the element of blindness into the green. That was one of the things we looked at with Karl Olson during our little reconnassiance mission last month.

[Mark Hissey]

Patrick. It is a little bit of a coincidence that you asked this question because I spent most of yesterday with Garret Bodington reviewing all of our winter projects. We also went to a lot of areas that we haven't been to in years, and some which we actually went to for the first time.

The area on the south side of Cold Spring Road is 54 acres. It is predominantly wetland, though there are two official upland areas there. There is also a small upland island there that few people know about. Getting deep into the vegetation there made us realize what a great piece of land that it.In this day and age, it was completely impossible to use it. However, if we were able to do what CBMac was allowed to do, there could have been some nice holes created with a little dredging and filling.

In addition, on the main parcel in the area south of the seventh green across the entrance road, there is some really wild looking areas whcch are dotted with wetlands of various sizes, one of which is a great looking circular swamp.

There is a similar round wetland in between the 14th and 5th holes. It is pretty large and not to overgrown. There are some lovely natural contours through there which could have produced some good ideas.  As a matter of fact, I have an early routing with a par three playing right across thsi wetland to a green where the fifth green now lies.

Finally, there is the 12 acre parcel across Sebonac Road which is a really fantastic piece and is basically an offshoot of National. It has lots of wetalnds in it, but again, it has some very nice features which have never, ever been disturbed.

Add it all up, and it still isn't enough for 36 holes. However, If Tom and Jack had been untethered like CBM was, there is no telling what they would have been able to create. I think about that often, and I know Tom will argue with me on this. It isn't a level playing field. Tom holds CBM in very high esteem and rightfully so. But, let's not forget that National would look very, very different if I was pushing through the permitting in the early 2000's. As a matter of fact, it may well be a nine hole course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Hissey,

I know I'll get an arguement from the environmentally sensitive, but, I don't see what harm is done by clearing swamp land on that site.  

CB MacDonald described the property in terms not too disimilar from yours.  They filled in swamp land and made a beautiful golf course close to 100 years ago, and, I'd hazard a guess that the golf course has had far less of a negative impact on the envirionment than the many potato and other farms in the area.

It's one thing to be environmentally prudent, it's quite another to be environmentally wacky.

I wonder, if Mike Pascucci was so inclined, if Sebonack could have been a 36 hole complex, 18 private and 18 public, if the town/agencies had given you folks a free hand.

[Mark Hissey]

Patrick.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the farms in the area are far worse for the environment than any of the golf courses. The farmers have become somewhat sacrosanct, and undeservedly so in my book.

But, wetlands have a place. They are great filters to prevent contamination. But, the issue is, how much do they have to filter with a golf course and is it better overall to fill some of them in and have a better golf course? That is a question that has to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

Having 36 holes in a 50/50 private/public split was a complete non-starter. Not only would Michael Pascucci never allowed that to happen, but the the Town wasn't the final arbiter in all of this. There was Federal and State jurisdictions at hand which would have prevented it from ever happening.

[Adam Clayman]

Mark, Any thoughts for other "high end" recreational activities planned for those 54 acres?

 I know my Sheryl wants Rupert to go equestrian, but she's just being selfish.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark, Any thoughts for other "high end" recreational activities planned for those 54 acres?

 I know my Sheryl wants Rupert to go equestrian, but she's just being selfish.

Riding a horse through that 54 acres would be like trying to ride it through the gorse at Bandon. Basically, you have no chance.

Hunting is about all you could manage there mate.

Will I see you in LA in February?

[Scott Szabo]

I know my Sheryl wants Rupert to go equestrian, but she's just being selfish.

Adam,

There has been talk from some of the area residents about offering equestrian services to guests of Ballyneal.  They are not affiliated in any way with Rupert, at least not to my knowledge.  One of my staff has family that lives within a mile or so of Ballyneal, and she has spoken to me about their interest.  May be something for Rupert to consider?