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Glenn Spencer

Explain your Worst
« on: December 14, 2006, 04:35:28 PM »
On the Bashing thread, it was said that architects have a litany of reasons for building a bad hole. I am trying to come to terms with this. I was wondering if the participating architects would like to explain why they built some iffy holes and maybe explain some of the treehouse nominations. What all went into it that a golfer would not pick up on.

TEPaul

Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 08:31:44 PM »
In my opinion, and particularly in a routing sense, sometimes you have to accept a bad hole simply to overcome creating a number of bad or bland holes---generally in the area of that one bad hole. You know what they say---you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's probably just a matter of compromise.  ;)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 08:49:35 PM »
There are no bad holes. Only better ones.

OK there a few really bad holes out there. But, the education required to know it's bad, might not be worth the effort. :-*

Implying one of life's greatest counter intuitives, ignorance is bliss.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Phil_the_Author

Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 05:30:42 AM »
Adam,

You obviously have NEVER seen the 18th hole at the St. Ives Country Club in Alpharetta, Georgia.

A 460-yard par-5 that can't be reached in two because the green sits on top and behind a monstrous outcropping of granite.

It is the longest walk you will ever experience and the stupidity of the short tee shot you are forced to take followed by a short lay-up followed by a mid-iron to this poorly built green... and then, because this was originally the 9th hole and the clubhouse location was changed, or some such nonsense, it takes forever before you can get your self a stiff drink since the clubhouse is so far away.

A horrible, horrible hole... and I am the product of public municipal golf!


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 08:15:26 AM »
Tom P:  I couldn't disagree with you more.  The very thought of accepting one bad hole in a routing is what gives us so many mediocre courses.  Sure there are always going to be holes which are relegated to less exciting parts of the ground, but if you are actually going to route a hole over a bad stretch, you'd better have figured out in advance how you are going to make it work.

wsmorrison

Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2006, 08:55:45 AM »
While I hesitate to be critical of anyone's work since it is presumptuous for us to think we have close to the required insight into all the details that go into a golf course routing and design, there is one question I would pose to Tom Doak.  I do understand that the previous routing was fixed by permit, but a question remains.

Regarding the 17th hole on the old course at Stonewall, I have a hard time figuring out what was going on.  What is the purpose of the long walk from 16 green to 17 tee for the hole you present?  It is nicely bunkered at the front of the green and the green itself is pretty good, yet it is a rather odd hole.  Walking to the tee, you get the sense you're in for something really fine as there had to be a reason for the disconnnect and the offering is a let-down, especially in contrast to the other outstanding holes.   The 17th seems to only fill in the gap between the 16th green and the tee on your outstanding 18th hole and seems an example of the kind Tom Paul was alluding to.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2006, 09:41:15 AM »
Wayne:

The 17th at Stonewall (Old) was originally going to be a 220-yard hole with the tee down to the right of the 16th green, and sort of a reverse Redan cant to the green.  But, the clients asked us not to build it that way at the last minute ... they said they were concerned about the safety of players on the 11th tee, but I think that was a convenient excuse because an architect can't really argue with his client about safety issues.  Really, I think they had decided that the golf course was going to be harder than they thought (most of it was shaped by then) and they wanted us to back off a little.

I was not enamored with the hole at 180 yards which was the next option, as it fit right into the middle of the other par-3's.  Some wanted it to be a very short hole and eventually that's what we decided to build.

At the time I was not very happy with the situation but over the years I have forgotten about it.  I think the present 17th is a better hole than people give it credit for, but I do agree that the long walk is a weird break in the round at an important point.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 09:41:36 AM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2006, 09:41:40 AM »
Glenn,

Great question, even if I would be a bit uncomfortable explaining my worst.

First, I agree with Tom D in a large way. I once had a conversation with a lesser known gca (although one who has at least one regular here who is a supporter) who stunned me with the casual remark that "You know that every course must have at least one bad hole!"  While I didn't say anything, most of the mediocre to bad holes I see (or don't like) are, IMHO, a result of the gca just accepting his/her first attempt and not really trying other options.  

It starts in routing, and if I have a hole that isn't at least good, I keep trying and can't recall too many that I just gave up on. I at least try to get my worst holes to areas where I can move some dirt to fix them.  In fact, its often a necessity to move some dirt anyway, and routing a hole through a hill to get some cut can pay dividends.  Valley fairways are nice, even if they are sometimes artficially created.

That said,  in the feature design, some holes need more bunkers or whatever, and often the budget simply precludes adding enough bunkers or enlarging the green to give a hole some oomph.  In other cases, the owner - who has final say, since he who has the gold rules - doesn't want anything too radical, so you get stuck with something less than you envisioned.

As examples, I have recently had different owners reps question a Redan, Road Hole, and wild green contour concept as not what he wanted.  (Thats not golf, says he!) To be fair, they may have been ultra conservative about maintenance costs or speed of play in this golf business environment.

Perhaps the biggest reason for bad holes now is environmental constraints.   At Sand Creek Station, in Newton, KS, which has gotten generally good reviews, many have expressed a dislike of the par 5 second hole, which is down by Sand Creek itself, and has an old oxbow near the second landing area which may force a layup, and which despite our best efforts, is blind, at least until the cattails grow back.

In the planning phase, we naturally routed the course in the floodplain areas, and in a way to maximize housing on non-floodplain land.  In finalizing the routing, we had proprosed (and been allowed to) move that old ditch to right in front of the green and the plans went all the way through to final documents that way.  However, like many projects in housing, we started in advance of some permits and the total housing design.  

The net result was that the housing engineers came back after bid and told us that the old oxbow had to stay where it was, since they had used up our wetlands destruction allowance in other project areas (i.e., filled a wetland somewhere else to get another lot)

Now stuck, I tried to make the creek more visibile, but the fw area was so low, and the creek such a prolific flooder, that we actually had to raise the fw a bit more to provide 2 year flood protection - i.e. cart and fw would not submerge more than once every two years for drainage and revenue reasons, which trumped a blind, poorly located wetland in the design.

I a not a bad or uncaring gca, but I complied with the law, and the developer/owners wishes, which were  beyond my control and forced on me after I could do something about it.

And that, children, is the tale of how golf holes occaisionally come to be less than ideal.......(In the spirit of the season, I'm trying to make it sound like Xmas story ;)  )
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2006, 10:04:11 AM »
I agree with Jeff on nearly all of his points, though I was quite surprised to hear the point about not having the budget to give a hole "some oomph".  I must be lucky, because I have never been in a situation like that where we are counting pennies on the design of individual holes.  In the old days I would just stay on the bulldozer until we got it right -- the dozer doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things, and my time was free.  

Environmental issues are often the main culprit.  Right now we are working on permits for a project in northern California (the 18 hole addition near the Aetna Springs project) and we have routed a couple of holes through some sensitive ground ... live oaks around them and narrow valleys with intermittent streams coming out of the hills.  They have the potential to be terrific holes and they are essential to the routing plan, but we are taking a chance that they won't be permitted because someone will arbitrarily impose a setback, and if they do, Plan B is probably going to suck in comparison.  

So, that's a great real-world question for the group:  do you take such a chance in the routing knowing you are at the mercy of forces out of your control?  Usually I would try to go around the problem instead of confronting it head-on, but in this case, I don't see another solution anywhere near as good as the client wants it to be, so we are sticking our necks out.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 10:05:14 AM by Tom_Doak »

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2006, 12:33:46 PM »
They have the potential to be terrific holes and they are essential to the routing plan, but we are taking a chance that they won't be permitted because someone will arbitrarily impose a setback, and if they do, Plan B is probably going to suck in comparison.  

So, that's a great real-world question for the group:  do you take such a chance in the routing knowing you are at the mercy of forces out of your control?  Usually I would try to go around the problem instead of confronting it head-on, but in this case, I don't see another solution anywhere near as good as the client wants it to be, so we are sticking our necks out.
Tom, do you mean the holes won't be permitted, or the whole project?  And once this decision is made it's irrevocable?  No opportunity to address concerns raised by the reviewers?

If the whole project is jeopardized by the routing decision, that's obviously a risky proposition.  In my business I would want to push the envelope and see what comes back, but I don't have to deal with the sensitivities you do...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2006, 12:51:17 PM »
Eric:

If the holes aren't permitted as designed then we will have to change the plan substantially ... giving up other outstanding holes unless we want to ride a cart half a mile to get back to the rest of the course.  It's possible we will get a chance to work around their concerns, but many times that doesn't happen.  Once someone has set a "buffer" in stone you can't get them to change it no matter what, and clients are often ready to settle instead of fight when they've got millions tied up in the land deal.

You could still build a golf course, in fact that's the one down side of having a lot of land to work with -- outsiders who want to change the plan for other reasons can make the case that you have alternatives, even if they're not good ones from a golfing perspective.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2006, 01:01:03 PM »
Tom,

You might be luckier than most.  My comment about budget meant that we usually bid the course based on, say 85,000 SF of bunker and 130,000 SF of green, based on the 100 scale plans.  If our owner doesn't have room for change orders, we need to take out 1000 SF of bunker or green somewhere else if we add one.

Ridges, mounds and grass bunkers are usually free to add, but sometimes, a hole needs an extra bunker and we don't want to give up the other ones to make it work.

Since you are so lucky, I guess you should go ahead with holes as planned in CA.  Knowing my luck, I would just avoide the areas in question, presuming that they would be struck by opponents.  Or, put them in the first routing and then "concede" to diminish the course by routing around them, but knowing plan B was the plan all along.

"There might be other options" is/was the ongoing cry of environmentalists or no growthers to delay projects for a while now.  And at each meeting, someone new comes with that mantra, even if you have been to all of them and done 26 routings.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2006, 01:07:36 PM »
Jeff:

Maybe you should just reduce the size of the green on the hole in question by 1,000 square feet and then you would have plenty of money for whatever bunkers it needed!

As for California, the client has attracted investors on the promise of building a really great course, and I am not ready to compromise it away unless forced to.  I did have some hesitation in committing to the project in the first place, since it seemed possible that we would be prevented from making the site all it could be.  But I've just plowed ahead with blind faith that we will be able to make it work, which may not work as well in California as in Montana or Tasmania.  :)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 01:11:07 PM by Tom_Doak »

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2006, 01:21:46 PM »
Tom,

I surmise your question was directed at your fellow architects, so I'm way out of my depth, but I will say I am often amazed at what comes back from this simple question to an adversary: What is it that you want to accomplish?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2006, 01:27:10 PM »
I have always felt there is more than one perfect way to use almost any property.  As mentioned above, all it takes is some hard work to discover those holes.  Now, I don't know any of the specifics, so I will defer to you, but I suspect that you are similarly confident that you could find other alternatives that would pass muster if it came to that.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2006, 02:31:39 PM »
Eric:

I agree with you completely there. I'm sorry I have not been more directly involved in the permitting talks on this project so I could ask as simply as you have.  These days it seems like there are so many consultants on all sides that they just talk to each other and it's all adversarial ... they become like lawyers representing their clients ... and we architects are too busy jetting around between projects to be there at the right time to ask the question.


Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2006, 03:23:27 PM »
Tom,

Maybe you could appeal to their artistic side--remember Christo's "Running Fence" in Marin and Sonoma Counties?  :D


Rick Baril

Re:Explain your Worst
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2006, 03:57:10 PM »
Glenn,

Perhaps this is an example that fits your question:  We are in the design process of this course but it fits the delimma you pose.  We have a site with fairly gentle topography.  On one side of the site, we have a hill that provides a panoramic view to the landscape for miles (in fact it is the highest point for miles around).  The client has requested that we design a golf hole on this hill and I don't disagree with him because the view and experience will be fantastic.  And, a par 5 fits naturally into the landscape, in this location.  But, to get to this hole, we will end up with a par 4 (previous hole) on some, less than desireable land.  And, this par 4 will be out of character with the rest of the golf course i.e. "iffy".  So, we are potentially compromising one hole in order to achieve something, we hope will be extraordinary, for another hole.  

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