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Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2006, 01:26:22 PM »
Andy - oh hell yeah, that gets us to 14.  I bet we'd get to 25 easy if we kept going....

 ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2006, 01:30:38 PM »
Tom,

By your listing of 10 shots at Pebble you seem to have really strong feelings about #4. That was one of the holes I would have thought mundane based on my limited experience. Is the green really that severe? does the greens severity help coax you into an overly aggressive play off the tee? Maybe part of the problem in my memory is that I don't remember being able to really see the bluff and bay from the tee and to me it seemed out of sight, out of mind.

This question will clearly come from the better players perspective as opposed to my claim of being able to view from a wide spectrum, but...is the water to the right of #4 actually in play? I am not suggesting it is not, it just did not seem so to me. Do any of the guys in the Open ever hit it in the water? How many times have you? Is there value to approaching from that side?

Thanks

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2006, 01:41:13 PM »
JES:

Very fair questions re #4.  Let's take them in order.

Yes, the green is very very severe - quite a strong slope from back to front.  When put up to Open speeds, it can mean 3jacks from 15 feet very easily if one gets above the hole (the Tom Kite example).  Of course it's not kept that way routinely, but it must be respected.

And yes, I think it does coax one into an overly aggressive play off the tee, because you want to have a short shot into that green... or let's just say you want to have the shot you have the most confidence in.  The target is small and you do not want to miss it - side bunkers are no bargain - nor be above the hole.

As you stand on the tee, the water is not completely in sight - trees block it, as does the presence of the yacht club - but you surely know it's there having come off 3 green where you can definitely see where the ocean is.   ;)  In fact NOT seeing it adds to the uncertainty and discomfort on the tee shot...

As for the ocean being in play, hell no it's not for great players.  But it surely is for 99% of the golfing world - all it takes is a little slice.  Gee, what's the average player's miss?   ;)

I have indeed hit it in the ocean off the tee (shameful but true).  Seriously, all it does take is a bit of a push or a slice.

As for value approaching from any particular side, no I don't see that - as I say, the target is quite small.  The strategic choice is more of a distance nature - and don't forget the central bunker that must be carried.  Again no big deal for the skilled player, but a VERY big deal for all others.

Hell of a lot going on on a hole that some call mundane, no?

 ;D

BUT... for a great player it is just a 220 yard shot followed by a pitch.  That can be called mundane.  But to me this also illustrates the weakness of relying on the great player for assessment purposes.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:47:21 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Andy Doyle

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2006, 01:48:30 PM »
Tom:

You beat me to the first 8 holes, so I figured I would just pick up where you left off.

I was going to jump in when I first saw this thread, but I knew you would be a ready and capable defender of Pebble.

I clearly don't have the architectural pedigree of many on here, but I just don't see how anyone would not be thrilled to play this course.

I've only played Pebble once, but it was definitely one of the very top golf experiences of my life.  Yes, the $425 nagged at me (and so did my wife when she found out), but it didn't spoil the gorgeous April day.  The whole "experience" was great, but the golf itself was fantastic - it's a very fun course to play.

Andy

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2006, 01:57:56 PM »
Andy:  well said and amen, brother.

 ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2006, 02:07:22 PM »
Thanks Tom,

I realize there is only one way for the term "mundane" to be taken so I blame my brutally insufficient vocabulary for requiring me to use it. I certainlly don't think of it as a bad hole because, hell, it did coax one of my playing partners to hit Driver when he couldn't reach the green. I would agree with all of what you say except for putting any one of those shots (edit: on #4) in the "blew me away" category. A good solid challenging short par 4 (a difficult thing to do it seems) for sure but, to me, none of those shots hold a candle to the tee shot on #3, #5, the second on #6, #7, second on #8, second on #9 and second on #10, second on #16, #17 and first and second on #18.

I can imagine that the more I play there the greater that number of "blown away" shots becomes so I want to reiterate to all, I am not trying to bash Pebble, I think it is phenomenal and would be a blast to play anytime. Just trying to offer an objective opinion after limited experience.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 02:16:31 PM by JES II »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2006, 02:11:47 PM »
JES:

Understood completely.

I guess the difference is must take a lot more to "blow away" a player of your caliber if you choose to think of it simply as it plays for you.  Thus it does require more imagination for you.  For a guy like me, the imagination is a lot less necessary... and for the average player, it isn't even part of the equation.  That's a scary golf hole for him.

So yes, each of the shots I mention did blow me away, and will again if I ever get the chance to face them.  Of course none are of the caliber of the ones you mention... but those are also VERY VERY strong "blow one away" type of golf shots, so I find that no knock on #4.

I love the hole, oh yes I do.

 ;D

« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 02:12:34 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2006, 02:41:00 PM »
An interesting point on #4. I stood on the combination #4 & #17 tee for several hours on the last day of the 1992 Open. Player after player would aim straight for the 4th green only to be blown 20-30 yards left by the stong sea breeze. Why I thought doesn't anyone take it out over the cliff and let the wind bring it back? Someone later said that once the ball gets over the cliff it will fall from the sky faster than you can say double bogey; don't know if this is true, but I was amazed at how many Top Flight golfers all let their wedge shots be blown that far off line. No easy up and down to that narrow green from the left either.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2006, 02:59:48 PM »
I waited 25 years between rounds at Pebble from 1978-$40 and I was 17, until 2003-$375, just because of price of the round. I only went back to say I played the new par 3 fifth but after finishing the 8th with the sun out and looking back up the cliffs on the right and down the coast on the left if I had dropped dead right there I would have been satisfied. I waited 25 years to get another shot at the 18th tee shot, last time I put it on the beach, this time I parred the hole. There is just something special about being that close to the ocean. Price is tough to deal with but I won't wait another 25 years, maybe ten.
I compare the experience to other courses like this, can you recreate this course anywhere else? I think any inland course could be recreated with bulldozers and enough money(Shadow Creek), but a course like Pebble(I haven't played Cypress or MPCC but they fall into the category) can only be created by nature and the cliffs it sits on are one of a kind meeting of sand and sea.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

ForkaB

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2006, 03:06:26 PM »
Thanks Tom.

I too hate the course versus course debate as well, and was not asking for that. I don't think it offers any insight.

A 12:30 tee time on a summer day at Merion would probably top the list on the "pucker-scale". Never been to St. Andrews, but I cannot imagine a comparison. Who in the world would have the guts to ask 75 people to put down there soup spoons and quiet down so they can tee off?  ;D ;D

Jim

I think it was Joyce Wethered who said:  "What soup spoons?"

Huck

Hang in there.  You and Joel are right.  As loveable and cuddly as CPC is, Pebble is a better golf course, and if I had infinite money and complete access, and lived next door to Huntley (Ooommmm......) I'd split my play about 75 25 in favo(u)r of PB.  Why?

--more character building
--more fun
--less pomp and circumstance
--better architecture
--etc.

I see PB winning 3 and 1 in Match play.

Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2006, 03:07:03 PM »
Tim--

You'll catch some heat for the any inland course comment.  With which I respectfully, 100% disagree with.

As for Pebble, it was an experience, I'm just not sure it was ever totally mine.  There was just to much going on around me besides golf.  And there are too many places where that isn't the case for Pebble to ever be THE experience in golf for me.

Jim Dawson

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2006, 03:13:40 PM »
Good afternoon all,
The first time I played PB I thought that half of the course was mundane.
I just got back from a trip to PB with my wife, her first time and my 6th, and I am in love with the whole course. Some holes that seem just average, have a tendacy to grow on you.
I will go back and play whenever I can and while I can afford it.
Just an opinion from a snowbird, GO BADGERS.
JD

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2006, 03:14:14 PM »
Rich:

I kinda like loveable and cuddly.  ;D  And as much as I am defending Pebble Beach - and defend it I shall - I don't put it clearly over Cypress Point. In fact if you look at my top 12, you will see Cypress a few places higher.  BUT... that does change on a seemingly daily basis.  I won't argue with anyone who prefers PB over CPC, so long as they acknowledge both are pretty damn great.

Joe B. - your experience is shared by others, and is part of what I was saying in that the experience causes the course to be downgraded by some.  Imagine playing it with zero wait, zero crowds, 3.5 hours not rushing, just you and your favorite golf partner.... In that context it's rather great.
TH


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2006, 03:17:26 PM »
Master Richard,

Ms. Wethered must be history's one example able to match your combination of zen-like focus and royalty-like comportment...

humbly,

jesII
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 03:19:03 PM by JES II »

Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2006, 03:34:49 PM »
Tom--
Given a chance at those set of circumstances, there are still other places I'd play.  The Old Course, Augusta, PacDunes and SandHills come to mind.
I just don't think that level of intimacy is achievable at Pebble.  With all the roads/houses/joggers about.  And don't get me started on golf carts...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2006, 03:37:48 PM »
Joe:

Fair enough.  You picked some great ones to compare it to.  And if "intimacy" is what floats your boat, then yes, you won't find it at Pebble NEARLY as much as at those places.

But again, just imagine if you could.... I've experienced it.  It was rather neat.

That is a great aspect of the game in any case... and one of the reasons Sand Hills is indeed the greatest course on this planet.  But talk about a digression.... my apologies.

 ;D


Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2006, 03:44:50 PM »
Tom--

It seems as if your backing me into a corner.  No I don't think the good holes at Pebble excuse it from its poor and down right boring ones.  And I don't buy the argument that the bad holes are there to help with the overall flow of the golfcourse.  There is no overall flow.  Of the great courses I've played/seen Pebble felt as much like 18 seperate events as any of them.  If I had a time machine would I use it to play a round at pebble in the 30's?  For sure.  But as it stands now put me on the list of detractors.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2006, 03:47:54 PM »
Joe:

I don't mean to back you into a corner... I was just responding to your take as you can likely tell I am a rather big fan of the place.   ;D

But it does have its detractors, without a doubt.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  It's OK to be completely wrong about something - happens to me all the time.

Just not today.

 ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2006, 03:57:29 PM »
Just to show I am not actually down on PB, I'll jump in the ring with Joe here on the "18 separate events" line.

Don't you feel the flow of the first few holes working you towards the water is a nice intro? You then play 4, 5 and drive on 6 sort of in baited anticipation of what's to come...and then on the 6th fairway and especially on top of the hill you enter into fantasyland through the 10th green...then 11 through 15 are their own act up on the hill overlookng the rest...while 16 works back down towards the home finish.

I am not one to really understand routing, and more specifically its challenges and its beneficial results, but I see three or four different parts to this story. Not 18. I might put Pine Valley in the 18 separate events category.

Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2006, 03:58:32 PM »
Tom--

I'm sure of one thing, and that is there isn't a right or wrong answer here.  If you like your golf segmented by roads and cart paths, Pebble is your place.  If you like feeling as if your in someones back yard (even if the house has been empty for a month), Pebble is your place.
I agree that the price shouldn't be held agasint the place.  There are just too many things that can...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2006, 04:02:28 PM »
Joe:

I was just trying to have a little fun with you (thus the smileys inserted); of course there's no right or wrong.  Obviously I find huge positives to outweigh any small negatives at Pebble Beach, you don't.  Fair enough.

TH






Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2006, 04:07:49 PM »
JesII--
4-8 where the only holes that felt somewhat  'connected' to me.  And much of that has to do with green to tee walks, or lack there of.  1-3 could be anywhere in the world. Same goes for 11-15.  And while 16-18 have the scenic beauty that marked holes 4-8, they certainly don't match the level of architecture of those same holes.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2006, 04:09:18 PM »
It's curious to me that you leave 9 and 10 out of that entire post...any particular reason?

Joe Bentham

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2006, 04:11:34 PM »
Tom--
I enjoy a good discussion, and this is and has been one.  I get a little excited at times.  To paraphrase Mr. Doak, I'd put Pebble in the top 10 in the country, just closer to 10 then 1.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2006, 04:13:06 PM »
Joe:

Oh my... sorry, I can't let some of those lie, as much as I wanted to just agree to disagree.

3 could be anywhere in the world?  With that ocean background?  That green with those subtle breaks?  But more importantly, that tee shot with its many choices, over that barranca with those trees?  Must be a pretty fine world you live in if that occurs everywhere....  ;)

Not sure what you mean either by a "level of architecture" that exists on 4-8 which is somehow lacking on 16-18.  Hell all are pretty damn great golf holes as I see it, with 16 being the weakest (and even it is pretty darn interesting).

Also curious what bad walks you found... 4-8 is no different than the rest of the course... there are no long ones...

It's Ok to be a detractor, as I say.   But these are head-scratching critiques, if you don't mind me saying.

TH

ps - this was posted before your last one... we're OK as long as you put it in the top 10, and these are just nitpicking.  I still don't find any bad walks, and find 3 to be a pretty great golf hole... but if your overall is top 10, that's cool.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 04:14:06 PM by Tom Huckaby »