[Joe Bentham]

JesII--
A slight oversight on my part.  But I'd include 9-10 with 16-18. Nice scenery, rather bland as golf holes.

[David Stamm]

Could a lesser course on that exact same property generate the same feelings?

 

JES, while it's not exactly what you are looking for, I have a personal "comparison" to offer as an answer. I have played Torrey Pines South and North at least 50 times. While it sits on higher bluffs, the views are amazing and I've never tired of them. Having said that, there is no comparison in regards to the courses. PB is clearly a superior course. While I do still get excited when I play TP, it's not near to the extent of PB because I know how special the course is. And TP is no slouch. The short anwer is no, if a lesser course occupied the same property, it would not excite me as much.

[Tom Huckaby]

JesII--
A slight oversight on my part.  But I'd include 9-10 with 16-18. Nice scenery, rather bland as golf holes.

whoa!

Those are rather bland golf holes?

I need to live in a world with such high standards.  Then again, perhaps it's good that I don't.

 

[David Stamm]

JesII--
A slight oversight on my part.  But I'd include 9-10 with 16-18. Nice scenery, rather bland as golf holes.

Bland?!? You must be freaking joking!!!

[JESII]

David Stamm,

That actually seems like a great comparison and, while I have not been played Torrey Pines, it is as close to Pebble type setting as we have. I have never heard a single person compare TP favorably to PB, not even close. At the same time, I have not heard anyone say TP is horrible so I think your point is taken, Pebble is very special and the ocean is just one part of the total package.

[Joe Bentham]

9-10 at pebble away from the water aren't that special.  Both in the 450 range (save the exact yardages for someone else, I don't have the scorecard in front of me) and the apporach at 10 is similar to the appoarch at 8, just not as good.  I love the Pacific Ocean as much or more then anyone (I've spent nearly 30 years living on it) but its impossible to judge these holes on the merits of themselfs.  One can not ignore the scenery.

[Stan Dodd]

I have had the opportunity to "experience Pebble recently both as a caddie and a player and have reconfrmed to myself that Pebble is just magnificent as a golf course.  Every hole has something to offerin terms of challenge beauty.  1, 2 ,3,4  15 , 16 may not be ball busters in difficulty but are a great test.  Caddying for a really good player like Andrew Biggadyke just confirmed the challenge ( and my short comings).  For me the only detractor is the experience, the chi- chi stuff around the lodge.
Joe,9 and 10 bland golf holes wow you must play some spectacular golf.

[Joe Bentham]

Torrey Pines is the poster child for average golf in a great setting.  Although the cliffs at Torrey a high enough that routing holes close to them would have been a safety issue...  

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:

Why SHOULD one ignore the scenery?  Are you blind and/or do you play with your eyes closed?

Good lord, we have another Mucci - scenery doesn't count.  Please tell me you're not that way....

In any case, I also find there's a hell of a lot more going on on each hole than just the pretty view.  

9 - canted fairway means great attention must be played to the drive... you can get a turbo boost by favoring the right, but you risk going into high rough... angle is better from right also but again there's that risk.  2nd is going to be long and tough no matter where you leave the drive... dip in front of green on left makes judging distance difficult... green is maddening, with many breaks away from the ocean when everything about it looks like it should break toward....

Want me to start on 10?  If anything it has more going on than 9....

TH

[Joe Bentham]

Tom--

The greens at pebble are two small to be intresting.  One Macro-break a green.  I've played pebble twice, and looped 15 times and don't remember anything on 9 as maddening.
As for scenery, its a HUGE part of a golf course.  But how much influence it has is different for every golfer.  Do I grow bored of the Pacific Ocean?  Nope.  The opposite is true, becuase it changes so rapidly.  But I can dismiss it when discussing the merits of a golf hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ok Joe.

We're so far apart on this, no further discussion is likely to be productive.

Small greens can't be interesting?  Different planets we inhabit.

Scenery to be dismissed when discussing the merits of a golf hole?  Different universes.

Vive l'difference.

TH

[David Stamm]

JOe, are we talking about the same course??

[Joe Bentham]

Tom--
 :'(I've made my first enemy on the board.  Small greens leave no room for great lag putts.  And almost always lead to the same chip shot over and over if one misses the target.  Pebble would be a better course with just a couple of bigger greens.  And to insist that this opinion isn't valid, well I might be the newbie, but you might want to do some reading

[Adrian_Stiff]

9 and 10 are real wow holes IMO, I like the risk/reward that the better line into the 9th is from the right-so flirt with the ocean, 10 is a similar hole, as i remember the beach plays more of a part doesn't it. i know i went 3 6 6 3 3 from 8 to 12. and at 9 i caught a trap on the left off the tee, it was a outsideways situation. there was some interesting broken ground in front of 9 as well. 10 was a bit more visually pretty.
Tom, I really saw nothing in the 3rd but on a once play visit its easy to miss the subtle things... any pics of 3? i take your point about pebbles first tee bottom twitch situation.

[JESII]

Joe,

You couldn't make an enemy out of Huckaby if you tried, so don't worry.

Which holes would be better with larger greens to justly challenge your lag putting?

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:

You've made no enemy in me; quite the contrary.  I just find our ways of looking at golf courses to be so different, it's fruitless to debate.  You're not going to convince me and I'm certainly not going to convince you.

I never said your opinion was invalid (outside of the first time when I was just trying to have some fun).

I just look at this very differently than you do.

In any case, you do make a good point about small greens in general; I just find no lack of lag putts at Pebble, nor any green where one gets the same chip every time.  

It's all good.  I just have learned that at times it's better to just give up than beat a dead horse.  So like I say, vive l'difference.

I will advise this, from experience in forums such as these:  if you do want to keep things friendly and have good-natured discussion, a suggestion that the other party needs to read more does not help.  But I suppose I deserved that to some extent.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe,

You couldn't make an enemy out of Huckaby if you tried, so don't worry.

So true - just ask Mucci.
 

I do appreciate that though, Sully.


Adrian - no hassles man - 3 has no obvious striking greatness, I'll admit.  It didn't jump out at me my first few playings either.  In fact, I never really "got" it's coolness until sitting alongside it watching the AT&T a few years ago... watching the pros - and hack Ams - attack it in so many different ways... I suppose by then I was more open to inspiring scenery as well... But it was eye-opening watching it played many times by many different levels of players.

TH

[Joe Bentham]

JesII--

I'm not going to attempt a re-model of Pebble Beach off the top of my dome.  But as a fan of this web site I think both of you would admit that varitey is a good thing in golf course design.  
If your Iron game if off at Pebble and you can't hit a 60 degree wedge to save your life then it is going to be a long day.  Conversely, at some of the other course I've mentioned this wouldn't be a death sentence because of the varitey of the green complexes.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:

I can't give up.  

Of course variety is the spice of life, and golf.

I just continue to find no lack of it at Pebble Beach; quite the contrary, I see it there in spades.

I gather you don't see the ground game working anywhere?  That can be true after a good soaking.  And there are some greens to which a lofted approach is the best play.  But I can think of many instances on the course also where I'd be just fine with a 7iron, playing into many greens.....

I also see a lot of room for great lag putts....

But maybe I'm just looking for all of this more?  Maybe I want to see it more?

Or maybe you don't, in each case?

TH

[Joe Bentham]

Tom--

I've been around Pebble Twice as a player, and yes I hit some bump and runs into a couple of greens.  More because I was intrested in seeing the results, and because I detest the 60 degree wedge.  As I Caddie I can't recall once asking a player to play a bump and run.  I would have likely been laughed off the golf couse.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom--

The greens at pebble are two small to be intresting.

 

Too small to be interesting? I believe Ben Hogan said it better than anyone else, "Surely, the idea of playing golf is to hit the target set for you." How he hated losing a Major to Billy Casper, when he outplayed him but took umpteen more putts on some rather large greens.

Apart from the Old Course, I get no joy in bashing a putt thirty yards on a perfectly manicured green.

As for number nine being a nothing hole without the ocean on your right, is mind-numbing. Try imagining the right side hemmed in by a row of trees from tee to green with no water in sight. Leave the left side of the fairway as it is. You still have the essence of the hole. A shot from a canted fairway lie to a green protected by a cavernous bunker on the left and 'trees' or a fall off to the beach below. This is a pretty tough shot for me, I hold you in awe if you think otherwise.
Bob

[JESII]

JesII--

I'm not going to attempt a re-model of Pebble Beach off the top of my dome.  But as a fan of this web site I think both of you would admit that varitey is a good thing in golf course design.  
If your Iron game if off at Pebble and you can't hit a 60 degree wedge to save your life then it is going to be a long day.  Conversely, at some of the other course I've mentioned this wouldn't be a death sentence because of the varitey of the green complexes.  

Joe,

There is another thread going on (maybe on to page 2) about architect bashing and you can read my opinion of what you have just done there.

You have spent 10 posts or so laying out reasons Pebble falls short for you...one of them is a lack or green size to ably challenge your lag putting...i aks for an example of a hole that might be better with a bigger green and you come up with "I'm not going to attempt to re-model Pebble off the top of my dome". With all due respect, that's a cop out. the biggest negative on this site is the ability to make statements that you need not defend. If your opinion should be so respected as you suggest, you might want to support it with logic and reason.

If you don't see a variety from #4 to #10 to #14 to #18 I feel for you. In fact that might explain calling #'s 9 and 10 mundane.

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe - I can imagine the experience as a caddie there is quite different... and given the normal clientele, well... hell yes you're gonna be laughed at for suggesting the bump and run!

In any case, I believe Mr. Huntley summed up #9 rather well... I still find it darn tough to call that a bland golf hole.  

[Mike Benham]

Joe -

As noted, making an enemy of America's Guest is nearly impossible.  

The one flaw that you do possess is one extra letter in your last name.

Regards,

Mike Ben - no t - ham

[David Stamm]

I'd like to join in the stroking of Hucks ego!

Hucks is all class!

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