[Sean_A]

A spell ago I went through my favourite 18 courses and tried to figure out the best #1 from the lot, the best #2 etc.  I was trying to find out if 1) sentimentality is clouding my judgement and 2) if it could help me identify which type of holes I really like.  

#1 St. Enodoc par 5  518 yards
a close second was Lahinch

#2 St. Enodoc par 4  438 yards
A close second was Burnham & Berrow

#3 Royal Dornoch par 4  414 yards
Enniscrone was a close second, though no other #3s from my lit jumped out at me

#4 Sandwich par 4  416 yards
Several others were strong candidates, but Sandwich is a clear winner


#5 Beau Desert par 4  418 yards
It was hard to pass over Donegal's, Lahinch's and Woodhall Spa's par 3s

#6 Royal Dornoch par 3  163 yards
Lahinch was a strong candidate

#7 Pennard par 4  350 yards
Lahinch was second choice


#8 Ballybunion  par 3  153 yards
Lahinch a strong candidate

#9 Burnham & Berrow  par 3  163 yards
Beau Desert, Woodhall and Kington all were in the hunt
______________________________________________
FRONT NINE  PAR 34  3033 YARDS

#10 Royal Dornoch  par 3  177 yards
Woodhall was a consideration

#11 Ballybunion  par 4  453 yards
It was difficult to pass on Pennard

#12 Addington  par 4  472 yards
There was really njo option


#13 Addington  par 3  225 yards
Is there a better back to back duo of heroic holes?


#14  Dornoch  par 4  445 yards
Tough to pass on Portrush

#15 Burnham & Berrow  par 4  440 yards
Another one of North Berwick's famous holes misses out

#16 Addington  par 5  512 yards
Ballybunion was a strong consideration, but how can you pass on a par 5 that is easier to get a 4 than its best par 4?




#17 Woodhall Spa  par 4  336 yards
St. Enodoc and Birkdale have very good 17s as well


#18 Kington  par 4  283 yards
Burnham's is very, very good as well






#19 North Berwick
___________________________________________________

BACK NINE  PAR 35  3343 YARDS

TOTAL  PAR 69  6376 YARDS

I am pleased that the length of the course isn't out of control, but I accept that this would be one hell of a brute course despite the short yards.  With 5 par 3s and only 2 par 5s the coure would actually feel considerable longer (a trait I admire very much in courses).  I am guessing more like 6800 yards - an excellent length for the back tees.  

I seem to have a penchant for long, tough par 4s - I listed 5 of them (one of which is a par 5 really, Addington's 12th).  I spose it is so rare to come across really great long par 4s that I cherish them.  I also seem to really like mid-length par 3s - I listed 4 of them.  This may be the weak part of my course (besides the freakish nature of how the pars fall).  The mid-length par 3 is perhaps the easiest of all holes to design, perhaps that is why I selected so many.  In fact, I really admire the very short par 3, I just don't come across that many which are truly great.  For the most part I have shied away from wild greens, though the 7th at Pennard is a notable exception.  I have only listed 1 reachable par 4 which surprises me a bit, but the goodun's are rare.


I am astonished that I have only listed holes from 10 of my favourite 18 courses.  I am also amazed that Dornoch placed 4 and ADDINGTON placed 3.  Some of my absolute most beloved courses such as North Berwick, Carne and Lahinch didn't place a single hole.  I can explain North Berwick because I know that as a golf course it isn't really world class, but I love the experience as much as any.  Call me sentimental.  In the case of Lahinch, it was bad luck because I know this is a great course.  Carne on the other hand has me puzzled.  Maybe I am hyping the course too much.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean, I think you should limit yourself to only a single hole from each course, and, when you have done all 18, you will need to ensure that you have a well-balanced course.  I'll give it a shot.  Thanks for the provocation to have a go.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - there's either some weird ESP going on or you read my post in the NGLA #3 thread... but I went through this exercise several years ago.  If you want I shall post my summation... it's a little dated now and I might have some changes, but I found it fun.  It takes up a lot of space though so be careful what you ask for, if you do ask.

Note I didn't limit it to a single hole from a single course... I just tried to pick the best #1, best #2, etc.

TH

[Andrew Mitchell]

Sean

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who dreams up stuff like this. I've done this in my mind a few times (usually laid awake in the middle of the night unable to sleep ) but don't usually commit it to paper. I'll give it some thought and post something in the next couple of days.

[Doug Ralston]

Oddly, I tried this once last year. Came up with a par-73 course with 8 par-5's, 7 par-3's, and 3 par-4's. This seems odd, as we obviously play more par-4's. Yet I based mine purely on memorability ...... those I won't forget.

Do you have any of that kind of problem?

Doug

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug  - interesting - I never totaled it up before, but mine has 12 par 4s, 2 par 5s, 4 par 3s... total par of 70.  I guess I'm really a USGA guy.  

[wsmorrison]

"... but mine has 12 par 4s, 2 par 5s, 4 par 3s... total par of 70.  I guess I'm really a USGA guy"

Tom,

Merion or Shinnecock?  

[Tom Huckaby]

"... but mine has 12 par 4s, 2 par 5s, 4 par 3s... total par of 70.  I guess I'm really a USGA guy"

Tom,

Merion or Shinnecock?  

You know, either of those would work.
 

I limited it to courses I've played though... and Shinnecock got several honorable mentions, but no first string nods.  Mine is a pretty weird list.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Try this for size: UK only:

1. Royal Liverpool 428 yards par 4 (old numbering)
2. Royal Worlington and Newmarket 224 yards par 3
3. Prestwick 482 yards par 5
4. Ganton 406 yards par 4
5. Royal County Down 438 yards par 4
6. Hunstanton 337 yards par 4
7. Royal Troon 403 yards par 4
8. Royal West Norfolk 492 yards par 5
9. Silloth on Solway 134 yards par 3

Out 3344 yards par 36

10. Alwoodley 475 yards par 5
11. The Old Course, St Andrews 174 yards par 3
12. Swinley Forest 455 yards par 4
13. Royal Lytham and St Annes 342 yards par 4
14. Royal Dornoch 445 yards par 4
15. North Berwick 192 yards par 3
16. Saunton East 434 yards par 4
17. Conwy 389 yards par 4
18. Woodhall Spa 540 yards par 5

In 3446 yards par 36

Total 6790 yards par 72

I'm not entirely happy with having three par 3s on odd numbered holes and three par 5s on even numbered holes - not great for matchplay.  I'm pleased to have got a number of shorter par 4s in and several decidedly short par 5s, but each has the capacity to put egg on face if the gamble doesn't come off.  There are a few too many par 4s in excess of 400 yards for my tired old game, but I'll take my strokes at those holes and use my handicap.  

Sean, I'm sorry not to have included Pennard or Beau Desert, but I know that you will represent them loyally in your selections.

[tlavin]

1. Spyglass, par 5
2. Medinah, par 3
3. Olympia Fields (North), par 4
4. Bandon Dunes, par 4
5. Shoreacres, par 4
6. Pinehurst (#2), par 3
7. Pacific Dunes, par 4
8. LACC (North), par 5
9. Pebble Beach, par 4
10. Pebble Beach, par 4
11. LACC (North), par 3
12. Sand Hills, par 4
13. Augusta National, par 5
14. TPC Sawgrass, par 4
15. Beverly, par 4
16. Cypress Point, par 3
17. Pacific Dunes, par 3
18. Riviera, par 4
19. Beverly, the best bar in American golf!

That's a 36-34 layout, with three par three's on the back, which gives it a little bit of quirkiness.  I didn't pick the best holes out of my fave courses, but there's a hole or two from my favorites, with only Olympic Club not represented.

[Tom Huckaby]

Terry - fantastic list - and man 19th holes have huge relevance to me.. I hadn't heard that about Beverly.  VERY cool.  

OK, here's mine.. we have a lot in common... and man there are some very tough calls to make.... sorry for wordiness - cut and pasted from word doc:

Best 18 Holes I’ve ever played
Based on number


1.  Sand Hills GC:  550 yard par 5, sweeping around and up to the top of a dune; strategy, strategy, strategy and one of the world’s coolest views from the tee – it’s my screensaver for very good reason
Honorable mention:  Spyglass Hill, Ballybunion Old, Lahinch, National Golf Links of America, Pacific Dunes, Prestwick (Old), Shinnecock, St. Andrews (Old)

2. National Golf Links of America:  “Sahara” – 330 yard par 4 filled with strategy.
Honorable mention:  Applebrook GC, Ballybunion (Old), Chicago GC, Cypress Point, , Lehigh CC, Olympic Club (Lake), Pacific Dunes, Pasatiempo, Riviera, Royal Dornoch, San Francisco GC, Spyglass Hill, Sand Hills GC

3. National Golf Links of America:  “Alps” – 426 yards, a contender for the single best hole on this earth.
Honorable Mention:  Cruden Bay, Gullane #1, Olympic Club (Lake), Pebble Beach, Prestwick (Old), Royal Portrush, Spyglass Hill, Yale University GC, Valley Club

4.  National Golf Links of America:  THE Redan – 185 yards, perfection, perhaps the best par 3 on the planet.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Bandon Dunes, Cruden Bay, Lahinch, Lehigh CC, Pacific Dunes, Pebble Beach, Riviera, Royal County Down, Royal Dornoch, Spyglass Hill, Yale University GC

5. Walton Heath (Old) – 395 yards, par 4 – perfect example of heathland golf.
Honorable Mention:  Bandon Dunes, Cabo del Sol, Cabo Real, Cypress Point, Nairn, Palmilla (Mountain Nine), Pebble Beach, Sunbrook GC (St. George, Utah – The Pointe Nine)

6.  Green Spring GC (St. George, Utah) – 449 yards, par 4, tee shot straddles a ridge with gaping canyon right, ob left, then 2nd must clear the same canyon going to the right.
Honorable Mention: Carnoustie, Cypress Point, Pacific Dunes, Pebble Beach, Royal Dornoch, Shinnecock Hills

7.  Pebble Beach GL – 107 yards, tiny green perched atop the Pacific.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Ballybunion (Old), Cypress Point, North Berwick (West), Olympic Club (Lake), San Francisco GC

8.  Pebble Beach GL – 433 yards, 2nd shot over ocean chasm, incredible.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Cruden Bay, National Golf Links of America, Royal Troon, Valley Club of Montecito

9.  Royal County Down GC – 425 yard par 4, over the dunes and into a valley, incredible view, incredible green site.
Honorable Mention:  Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula (Dunes), Muirfield, North Berwick (West), Palmilla (Ocean Nine), PGA West (Stadium), Pebble Beach, San Francisco GC, Turnberry (Ailsa), Yale University GC

10.  Riviera CC – 320 yard par 4, angles, angles, angles.
Honorable Mention: Bel-Air CC, Lehigh CC, Monterey Peninsula (Dunes), Pasatiempo, Pebble Beach, St. Andrews (New), Yale University GC, DeLaveaga GC

11.  Ballybunion GC – Old – 440 yards par 4, along the Atlantic, one of the world’s great par 4’s
Honorable Mention: Cypress Point, Falsterbo GC, Lehigh CC, L.A.C.C. (North) Pasatiempo, Ojai Valley, Shinnecock Hills, St. Andrews (Old)

12.  Lehigh CC – 410 par 4, one of the more “natural” holes I’ve ever seen, laying along the side of a stream, strategic tee shot as well.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Chicago GC, Royal Birkdale, Royal Dornoch, Shinnecock Hills, St. Andrews (Old)

13.  Pacific Dunes – 400 yard par 4, ocean on left, incredible sand dune on right.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Cypress Point, Muirfield, National Golf Links of America, Spanish Bay

14.  Royal Dornoch GC – “Foxy” – 420 yard bunkerless par 4, incredibly difficult approach shot and maddening green, perfection.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Applebrook GC, Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula CC (Dunes), National Golf Links of America, North Berwick (West), Pebble Beach, Portmarnock, ), Royal Portrush (Dunluce), Shinnecock Hills, Spanish Bay, St. Andrews (Old), Western Gailes, World Woods (Pine Barrens).

15.  Cypress Point Club – 139 yards par 3, incredibly beautiful pitch over the ocean to one of the world’s finest green sites.
Honorable Mention:  North Berwick (West), Turnberry (Ailsa), Royal Birkdale, World Woods (Pine Barrens)

16.  Cypress Point Club – 233 yards, par 3, the most thrilling hole on this earth.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Carnoustie, Cog Hill (Dubsdread), Half Moon Bay (Ocean), L.A.C.C. (North), La Quinta (Mountain), National Golf Links of America, Olympic Club (Lake), Pasatiempo, PGA West (Stadium), Shinnecock Hills, Turnberry (Ailsa), Valley Club

17.  St. Andrews Old – THE Road Hole.
Honorable Mention:  Ballybunion (Old), Bel-Air CC, Cabo del Sol – Ocean, Carnoustie, Cypress Point, County Sligo (Rosses Point), National Golf Links of America, Old Head, Pelican Hill (North)

18.  Pebble Beach GL – no description needed.
Honorable Mention:  Sand Hills GC, Cabo del Sol - Ocean, Carnoustie, Muirfield, National Golf Links of America, Olympic Club (Lake), Riviera, Royal Birkdale, Shinnecock Hills, St. Andrews (Old), Troon North (Monument), Wilshire, Yale University GC, Valley Club

[Bill_McBride]

See my composite course on the "Can a course under 6400 yards be challenging?" or whatever it was titled.  I picked 18 holes to fit par 72 < 6400 yards.  Lots of half par holes in both directions.  It would be quite a challenge.  There are, however, a couple of holes from each of three courses I think.

[Tom Huckaby]

See my composite course on the "Can a course under 6400 yards be challenging?" or whatever it was titled.  I picked 18 holes to fit par 72 < 6400 yards.  Lots of half par holes in both directions.  It would be quite a challenge.  There are, however, a couple of holes from each of three courses I think.

Bill - that was one hell of a list and would fit here and hold up its head VERY high.  Well done.

BTW, I need some submissions from Valley Club.... hadn't played that when I did this list... also Rustic Canyon... Wild Horse... lots are left out of mine.

[tlavin]

Huck:

I f'ed up by not putting #10 Riviera on the list.  That absolutely belongs on the list.  There isn't a better short 4 on the planet!

[Tom Huckaby]

Terry - no hassles man - I f'd up myself leaving out a bunch of courses.... but yes, #10 Riv is a rather strong golf hole.  

Toughest choice for me - #1.  Spyglass is awesome... very tough to pick Sand Hills but I had to do it.

TH

[tlavin]

Tom,

I just played Pebble, Spy and Cypress last week.  Awesome weather and spectacular golf.  I still like Bandon more as a resort, but there's no doubting that the Monterey Peninsula has an unbelievable amount of great golf holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Terry - that is a rather nice triumvirate - and you caught it just before it started raining here - well done!  But yes, those three do provide a rather nice collection of great holes... Then add the many great holes at the two MPCC courses to the mix... and the lesser lights Spanish Bay and Poppy Hills... and yes there are quite a lot of great golf holes inside the 17 Mile Drive!

[Mike Benham]

A while back this topic came up but you could only use 1 hole per course ... that changes things a bit ...

[Greg Tallman]

Huck,

At least CDS-Ocean squeezed three holes into you honorable mention lists.

When was the last time you saw #16?
Surprised #13(downhill par 3) could not get at least honorable mention...
New holes at 6 and 7 should shoe-ins (when completed)

[Tom Huckaby]

Greg:

As you know I am a HUGE fan of CDS-Ocean.  It has been at least five years since I've played it though.

I did love 16 as it was... has it changed?

13's a fine hole also.  

TH

[Bill_McBride]

See my composite course on the "Can a course under 6400 yards be challenging?" or whatever it was titled.  I picked 18 holes to fit par 72 < 6400 yards.  Lots of half par holes in both directions.  It would be quite a challenge.  There are, however, a couple of holes from each of three courses I think.

Bill - that was one hell of a list and would fit here and hold up its head VERY high.  Well done.

BTW, I need some submissions from Valley Club.... hadn't played that when I did this list... also Rustic Canyon... Wild Horse... lots are left out of mine.

If you take a look at Ran's profile, you will see a very true statement:  the Valley Club is a seamless flow of very good golf holes with nothing that truly stands out.  It's more a total experience than a "wow" factor.

Having said that, I think you will find that the par 3s are all outstanding and that #3, #16 and #18 are three of the best par 4s on the planet.

#16, 450 yard dogleg left with immense eucalyptus trees left and some spectacular bunkering in the fairway.  The green is steeply pitched from right to left, making the pitches from the right side extremely difficult when the timid player (like me   ) bails out right to avoid the fairway bunkers.



#18, 435 yard dogleg left left with the magnificent George Washington Smith clubhouse behind.  The hole is uphill so plays 20 yards longer.  All the area to the right and short of the green is now mowed at short fairway length, so all kinds of shots are possible including 50 yard putts!



Credit Mike Miller with those incredible paintings that absolutely capture the feeling of the Valley Club late afternoon.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - those are very fine additions - many thanks.  I have updated my list.

TH

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean, this is way to hard for my old memory.  The only thing I know is that you will pick number 11 at Wesward Ho!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

As you know I am a HUGE fan of CDS-Ocean.  It has been at least five years since I've played it though.

I did love 16 as it was... has it changed?

13's a fine hole also.  

TH

16 has changed from the landing area through the green in a variety of ways.

Green now sits at the very edge of the cliff above the beach/ocean - previously was about 20 yards short of current location.

Fairway was narrowed considerably(left hand fairway bunker added) - now from gold/black you not only have to kill it but be quite accurate if you wish to take advantage of the natual terrain... about 24 yards wide at the 300 yard mark(blacks) where the drop to the green begins. With the new green the hole presents the most demanding and spectacular approach on the course.

Various other changes in fairway level and cross bunkering short of the green(think blue tees)... Ocean far more prominently displayed than before if you can imagine that.

Always considered 13 the finest par 3 on the course even though it is the lone one shot hole not on the ocean... on that note I promise you'll love the back to back par 3's at 6&7 when redesigned. You'll be hard pressed to find a better set of 3's anywhere which isn't far from the truth now before the work.  

Better keep that passport updated.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Here you go Sean,  I wish my memory was better, but at my age I am just glad to be able to get to the course

1 Oakmont  Par four   
2 Pine Valley Par four
3 RCD Par four on the card but par five for me
4 Royal St. George Par four
5 Royal North Devon Par three one of the better 135 yards in golf
6 Loch Lomond Par five
7 Pine Valley par five
8 Pebble Beach par four one of the most exciting holes in golf
9 Members Club at Four Streams par four
10 Oakmont Par four with number one maybe the best two opening holes in golf
11 Ballybunion Par four
12 Sand Hills Par four one of the sleepers on the course
13 The European Club Par five
14 Portrush Par three
15 Cypress Point Club par three the best 135 yards in golf
16 National Golf Links par four just plain fun
17 The Old Course Par four but not for mortals
18 Rye Par four  awesome finish

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