[Adam Clayman]

I encourage all of you to go to Geoff's site and read the question and answer he posed to Tiger.

It should help clarify on which courses Tiger's comments were real, and which were PC.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

Ok, I read it, and all I learned is that Tiger is a great skier and that he prefers courses that are open in front.

So... which of his comments were real and which were PC?  I forget what he said before....

TH

[Adam Clayman]

TH, His coments are so well gaurded when he visits a new course every week(or Month in his case)

The bogus comments he made that I can remember were about Firestone, Medinah and their ilk.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Tiger is on the tour. How can he turn up for a tournament and slam the course? He would probably be fined and, even though he doesn't need the money, his competitors do.. he'd basically be dissing the sponsor, and therefore his peers, etc. etc.. We all know how crap the average tour stop is, and Tiger is more than willing to talk about this, it seems, if he's not playing there this week. I don't see that as a double standard.
If I'm playing a concert in a rotten venue, as happens from time to time, the last thing I want to do is alienate the owner, or the audience. I'll just lobby behind the scenes to try and ensure that it isn't on my tour next time.

[tlavin]

He seems well grounded.

[noonan]

Why all the Tiger hating?

We have an athlete here who transcends golf that is not ever in trouble with the law, been arrested, or beat his wife.

Please issue Tiger some slack.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry - just to clarify - you'll find no Tiger hating from me.  I am a huge fan and have been since I first saw him play, which was when he was 7.

I was just trying to get the gist of Adam's post.  

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Im at a loss to find the bashing too.

My hope was that comments like this

I play golf courses on Tour and we all see it, miss the green, automatic lobwedge, hack it out of the rough.  That to me is not fun golf.  Fun golf is Pinehurst.  Fun golf is playing links golf.  Fun golf is learning to how to maneuver the ball on the ground and give yourself options.  One of the hardest up and downs is when you have options.

would illustrate how RIGHT Tiger is, when describing what constitutes fun, in golf.

[JR Potts]

Im at a loss to find the bashing too.

My hope was that comments like this

I play golf courses on Tour and we all see it, miss the green, automatic lobwedge, hack it out of the rough.  That to me is not fun golf.  Fun golf is Pinehurst.  Fun golf is playing links golf.  Fun golf is learning to how to maneuver the ball on the ground and give yourself options.  One of the hardest up and downs is when you have options.

would illustrate how RIGHT Tiger is, when describing what constitutes fun, in golf.

Correction - what YOU constitute as fun.  There are millions of golfers in the world that have fun playing courses with forced carries, soft greens and lush green fairways.  I've heard more clubhouse and locker room talk about how "Herb backed a ball up from the back of the green all the way off the front" than about "Herb's bump and run shot that went in."

[Adam Clayman]

That's correct Ryan. All I can opine on is what I consider.

Apparently, I'm not alone in formulating that opinion/definition. Nor, was I the first.

[JR Potts]

Adam:  I'm with you!  It just continues to amaze me what "others" think is great on the golf course.  I am of the opinion that the vast majority of the people on this board are totally out of touch with what the "average" golf consumer wants/likes.

And that is a compliment to those on this board.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - I concur this board is wildly out of touch with the wants/likes of the average consumer.

I'm just curious why you find that to be a compliment to those on this board.

I'm not sure you're wrong... I just never thought of it that way.  Care to elaborate?

TH

[Yannick Pilon]

Wow!

Geoff needs to ask questions like this more often.  And golfers should, hopefully, answer like this more often as well....

This would certainly be the start of a good thing!

YP

[JR Potts]

Well I guess if you are in the business of pandering to the average golfer, then it isn't a compliment.

However, I am under the assumption that most who post on here truly love the game, the history of the game and cherish both.  In my opinion, the average joe who has his standing tee time at the local muni cares more about how many beers he is going to drink and who gets to drive the cart than about how they are going to approach a chip or who designed any aspect of the course and why?

Is that wrong, no?  It is a reflection of our current society and how the grace has been taken out of most everything.  

Nonetheless, this example is a part of the game that I, and most on this board, care not to embrace.  Does that make me (and others?) a golf snob?  Probably!  Do I care?  No!

I consider a compliment not to be lumped, or lump others, into the average golfer stigma.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan:

OK, I get that.. and I don't wholly disagree.  I just find it also quite a negative to be a snob.  Perhaps you don't care... but for me it's a very fine line.   That is, it is great to be passionate about anything... But I also know quite a few snobs and the trait is never attractive.

The average joe can be a pretty good guy - and drinking beer and driving a cart can also be pretty damn fun.  Let's not forget that.

TH

[JR Potts]

Ryan:

OK, I get that.. and I don't wholly disagree.  I just find it also quite a negative to be a snob.  Perhaps you don't care... but for me it's a very fine line.   That is, it is great to be passionate about anything... But I also know quite a few snobs and the trait is never attractive.

The average joe can be a pretty good guy - and drinking beer and driving a cart can also be pretty damn fun.  Let's not forget that.

TH

Yeah, maybe it is a negative.  And I can tell you that my "average golfer" buddies continually rip me about my preferences for not playing crappy golf courses with them, not downing a case of beer on the course with them [don't get me wrong, I'll do it - I just don't prefer it] and not playing with them because they really suck at the game.  That being said, certain people have certain preferences in their life that they cherish, which they pride and which they do not prefer cheap substitutes .  For some it's cars, for others it's wine, for others it's NFL football - for me, it's golf.  [Although I love wine, cars and NFL football too]  And, that makes me a snob.  A title I'm proud of.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan:

OK, understood.  This might be getting a little too personal and a little too deep - if so, my apologies.

Just do understand the people I tend to admire the most are the ones who have every right to be a snob - due to their experiences, life situations, etc. - but choose not to be so.  We have some damn fine examples on this site and I won't embarass them by naming them - regulars know who they are.  They are loved and admired, primarily for being so down to earth and gracious and fun-loving, able to fit in and enjoy themselves as much at Santa Teresa Muni as at Cypress Point.  I find that to be a compliment far more than being a snob ever could be.

But I doubt this is what you are really getting at, so perhaps I am getting way too deep and again, I apologize.

It is admirable to have passion and high standards.  What one does from there, well... again, to each his own.

TH

[JR Potts]

You're right, let's get back to talking about Ron Zook's recruiting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - well as you see, I took it a little farther.  I hope you don't mind... this is a facet of this site that has intrigued me for a long time.

As for Zook's recruiting, well... I'll leave that alone.  

 

[JR Potts]

I could care less.  In fact, that is what I love about this board so much - the call outs.  I think they create interesting, lively debates.




Florida would not be in the National Championship if Zook did not recruit those players.  Illinois was in the National Championship game in spite of Self's recruits.  That is Illini-law.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - fair enough.  I guess suffice to say we just look at this whole "snob" thing a little differently... I'd never use that as a compliment, though I do get what you mean.

And I love that Illini-law.  

[Tim Pitner]

The bogus comments he made that I can remember were about Firestone, Medinah and their ilk.

Adam,

Tiger has called Firestone one of his favorite courses in the world.  I realize that Tiger's comments about what constitutes a fun course do not describe Firestone or Medinah, but I'm not sure it's accurate to infer that his praise of those courses was less than sincere.  For example, he may think they're good tournament courses.  I think you're possibly ascribing some of your thoughts to Tiger.  BTW, while I have not played them, Firestone and Medinah epitomize boring golf to me.  

[JR Potts]

The bogus comments he made that I can remember were about Firestone, Medinah and their ilk.

Adam,

Tiger has called Firestone one of his favorite courses in the world.  I realize that Tiger's comments about what constitutes a fun course do not describe Firestone or Medinah, but I'm not sure it's accurate to infer that his praise of those courses was less than sincere.  For example, he may think they're good tournament courses.  I think you're possibly ascribing some of your thoughts to Tiger.  BTW, while I have not played them, Firestone and Medinah epitomize boring golf to me.  

Comments like this crack me up.  Maybe one should play them before forming such opinions?    

BTW - In case anyone is wondering, although I have not played it, St. Andrews is my favorite golf course.

[Tim Pitner]

Ryan,

I thought I was pretty clear that I certainly do not claim to be any sort of authority on Medinah, of which I know you're a staunch defender.  My experience with both Firestone and Medinah is as a television viewer, and I derive very little enjoyment from seeing these courses.  They just don't do anything for me, visually.  Contrast that with Prairie Dunes or Newport, which recently hosted major tournaments--the images made me want to play those courses.  I'm not saying I have no interest in playing Medinah, just that it doesn't appear to be very interesting.  Obviously, people who have played the course have much more credibility on the subject than me.

BTW, I was sort of defending Medinah by challenging Adam's statement that Tiger's praise of Medinah was PC BS.  

[JR Potts]

Ryan,

I thought I was pretty clear that I certainly do not claim to be any sort of authority on Medinah, of which I know you're a staunch defender.  My experience with both Firestone and Medinah is as a television viewer, and I derive very little enjoyment from seeing these courses.  They just don't do anything for me, visually.  Contrast that with Prairie Dunes or Newport, which recently hosted major tournaments--the images made me want to play those courses.  I'm not saying I have no interest in playing Medinah, just that it doesn't appear to be very interesting.  Obviously, people who have played the course have much more credibility on the subject than me.

BTW, I was sort of defending Medinah by challenging Adam's statement that Tiger's praise of Medinah was PC BS.  

Tim, I am a stauch defender so my bias always shines through.  As such, Adam is a stauch hater so his bias always shines through.  [Adam and I have worked through these issues though]

My point, and maybe it should be its own thread, is that in my opinion, one cannot and should not, with any bit of reliability, opine on whether or not they enjoy a course without playing it.   It's like a doctor diagnosing a patient without ever seeing him/her.  It lacks reliability and credibility.

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