News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« on: December 13, 2006, 09:35:06 AM »
my favorite hole in the world. (It's an epiphany thang, I can't explain it!).

So, why hasn't it been replicated?  Not to suggest Sand Hills and Ballyneal are lacking, but wouldn't those sites lend themselves to such a hole?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 09:42:37 AM »
Michael:

I once compiled a list of my favorite 18 holes on the planet, limiting it to holes I've played and doing it by number; that is, the best #1, best #2, etc.

NGLA is my #3.  I just checked the document I created for this and my description is:

3. National Golf Links of America:  “Alps” – 426 yards, a contender for the single best hole on this earth.

So I rather like it also.

Why hasn't it been replicated?  Well, you know at Sand Hills the land wasn't there... and given the "spoonfuls of earth" moved to created that golf course, would you have them go against that to create an Alps?  Seems to me they did the right thing there, and that course is lacking absolutely nothing.  Of course I do call it the greatest course on this planet, so you know I'd say that.

Can't say re Ballyneal but I'm guessing the mandate/spirit is rather the same.

Now as for why other Alps aren't created, well... don't we have a 20+ page thread going on right now, part of which is saying that it was at Merion?

In any case, #3 is obviously an incredible golf hole and if one wants to call it their favorite, or the best, or any other superlative, they will get little argument from me.

Funny thing is if asked for a favorite at that course, I go for #2.  My epiphany occurred there.   ;)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 09:44:17 AM »
Mike,

Where have you been? CB Mac designed one at Merion. Raynor engineered it across the Ardmore Avenue which was then wiped out by those Philly bastards Hugh Wilson and William Flynn!  :D ;)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 09:47:14 AM »
Tom,

I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's a natural alps hole somewhere on site at Sand Hills.  Let's get Tom Paul back out there.

Mike,

I gave up on the Merion thread days ago when co-workers found me face down on my desk one morning at 6:30 a.m., unshaven and mumbling "make it stop, mommy."

Mike
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:50:47 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 09:58:00 AM »
Tom,

I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's a natural alps hole somewhere on site at Sand Hills.  Let's get Tom Paul back out there.


Perhaps there is.  But would you really have them do replicas or templates there?  I'm rather happy with the quite unique holes they found.

 ;)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:58:23 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 10:34:35 AM »
Mike,

As was mentioned, I don't think the intent was to replicate an existing hole at Sand Hills, but, I agree with you that the topography, the critical element in the hole, is present at Sand Hills.

The Alps hole at NGLA is spectacular, although, hi-tech distance has hurt the hole.

The choice of direction and play on the drive, over the large diagonal bunker, has been somewhat muted by increased distance.  It's about a 220 carry up the right side.  In the past, with a head or quartering wind, that was a substantive challenge to most good players.  Today ?

Years ago, going up the right side, to get a glimpse of the putting surface was a real challenge for most good golfers.
Today, the challenge is greatly diminished.

However, the large, fescue laden hill seperating the bulk of the fairway from the green acts as a deterent to a long ball pulled or hit straight.  Drives hit straight away run out of fairway at about 250.  At that point the golfer has about 160 left into the green.  Hence, straight drives in the 230-240 range are desireable, leaving 150-180 into the green.

One of the beauties of the hole is the upslope in the fairway as you get close to the hill.  This allows a ball to gain height quickly, which is necessary if one intends to clear the hill.

What's interesting about the hole is the study of the component pieces.

The putting surface is quite unique with the bowls, ridges and tiers on the left side and the upper, flat tier which steeply falls off into the adjacent bunker on the right side.

The green surrounds are also interesting, from the berm that backs up the green to the falloffs/rolloffs left to the steep bunker right to the fronting bunkers.

The intervening hill, a massive obstacle offering no insight as to where one should play their next shot.

The unique structure of the fairway, allowing two lines of play, one directly at the green and the other running along the right flank of the hole.

One blind, the other visible.

The tee shot, over a large diagonal bunker with the longest carry up the right side.

The fairway bunkers, providing risk no matter how you choose to play the hole.

And, the wind.

What's interesting about the hole is that many, if not most, golfers don't like it the first time they play it.

Three views are striking and informative.
From the tee.
From the top of the hill looking to the tee and looking to the green
From behind the green looking back to the green, fronting fairway and bunkers, to the hill to the tee.

It would take a unique piece of land, or a lot of earthmoving to duplicate that hole.  And, the cost to move that much earth is probably why the hole hasn't been duplicated.

It is one of the great holes in golf.


Mike Sweeney,

That was very funny.


Tom Huckaby

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 10:41:52 AM »
Patrick:

That was a wonderful ode to a fantastic golf hole.

Hopefully you read my brief summation above... just note, I've played it exactly once.

Tom "Not most golfers" Huckaby  ;)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 10:42:37 AM »
Pat, you are exactly right.  The first time I played NGLA I couldn't figure out what to do at all, even with a good caddie.  It didn't fit my eye.  I have only played the course three times but the hole still gave me fits each time.  Hopefully one day it will make sense to me.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 10:45:25 AM »
Mike,
   The Alps is attempted now and again I believe. The problem is the "fairness" issue. Jeff Brauer did part of one in KS at Sand Creek Station. The problem is that the challenge isn't there off the tee, requiring you to take a risk to get in a better position. It is just an open fairway. The Alps does it's job of providing blindness for the approach shot. The green is fairly benign it seems (I haven't played the course). So, all in all it is a fairly tame imitation, but at least Jeff put one out there.

Patrick,
   It would be tough to recreate the NGLA Alps exactly, but the three key components of the hole could easily be replicated on a course where dirt is being moved anyway. First you set up the diagonal drive with the carry over sand and the hill across the fairway, so that depending on one's length off the tee they would have to aim accordingly. Second, you build a big pile of dirt to give the blindness for the approach, unless of course the tee shot is played aggressively to give a view of some of the green, Lastly, you build an interesting green with the nice internal contouring of NGLA's replicated. Of course the difficulty is tying it all together.
    I think even a disjointed version with the 3 components would be more interesting than a lot of what is built today.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:56:36 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 10:54:55 AM »
Bogey - I had pretty much the same reaction you did the first time I played this hole. I knew I was on special ground the minute I drove in the gates, but that's my favorite hole on the whole course, which is obviously saying something.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 12:23:40 PM »
I too have only been privileged to play it once but, I must say it gives enormous credence to the adage "Trust the shot" or host / caddie in my case.  I felt disoriented when I stood on the tee and was given directions where to hit.  There was not the traditional routing you would see from an elevated tee.  Even when you get to the fairway, I could not see anything but this "hill".  I took directions again.  I hit the shot and to my amazement it landed on the front of the green.  Two putt par.  Ho hum.  After playing the hole I really wanted to play it again and again and again ......!  I suspect that it was more beginners luck than skill.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Mike_Cirba

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 12:29:49 PM »
Mike,

Where have you been? CB Mac designed one at Merion. Raynor engineered it across the Ardmore Avenue which was then wiped out by those Philly bastards Hugh Wilson and William Flynn!  :D ;)

Mike,

Yes, it was at least 20, 30, 40, or more feet high I tell you, and more imposing than a Tyrannasaurus Rex.   It was absolutely impossible to clear with anything less than a herculean shot at the highest altitude; the hickory-shafted equivalent of a soaring Nicklausian 5-iron blast.

It was probably the best hole ever built in the entire world history before Flynn and Wilson ruined it.

Just ask David Moriarty and Tom MacWood.   ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 03:39:19 PM »
It's still there, hiding under all of those puffy lips....


JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 03:41:32 PM »
....a hole that I've never played.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 05:23:13 PM »
The Alps hole at Yale seems somewhat bland compared to the splendid hole at NGLA.  As I remember it, there was not much challenge to the fairway other than as much distance as possible, no bunkering to carry, no angle to seek at a risk.  It was a good hole, the only other Alps I can remember playing, but it didn't measure up to NGLA's Alps hole.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2006, 05:30:09 PM »
What makes NGLA's Alps truly the best of all Alps is the ANGLE at which the mountain lies to the fairway... that it's it's not straight up and over, but over at an angle, cutting off as much as you can - or not at all.  Seems to me all other Alps are straight at the mountain - carry over being the only choice.

For example Alps at Prestwick is one hell of a golf hole.. but it's purely heroic... straight out, straight up and over - and that's all well and good, but in the end that makes it not quite the incredibly special hole that NGLA #3 is.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 06:16:20 PM »
What makes NGLA's Alps truly the best of all Alps is the ANGLE at which the mountain lies to the fairway... that it's it's not straight up and over, but over at an angle, cutting off as much as you can - or not at all.  Seems to me all other Alps are straight at the mountain - carry over being the only choice.

For example Alps at Prestwick is one hell of a golf hole.. but it's purely heroic... straight out, straight up and over - and that's all well and good, but in the end that makes it not quite the incredibly special hole that NGLA #3 is.

Good point about the ANGLE at NGLA's Alps hole.  I played the hole twice one day in September, and the pin was on the extreme right side both times.  From down in the fairway, the pin appeared to be almost sitting on thin air up there, it was so far right.  Very inspiring and daunting.

I guess that's why the Alps at Yale (and the one at Prestwick I haven't seen) seems less inspired - it's the straight on aspect.  You also don't get the teaser view of the pin you get at #3 NGLA when the pin's way right.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2006, 06:25:26 PM »
Bill - I do think all of this is part of the greatness.  Very well said re the teaser view, also.

Good lord this is one fantastic golf hole... I have to believe one could play it forever and never completely "get" it... to me that's among the highest compliments I can give a golf hole.

TH

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2006, 06:45:26 AM »
We could build an exact copy of the Alps at National in Bandon (or somewhere else) if we wanted to.  Certainly, most clients would not want us to, because of the potential safety issues.

My own thought is that it is a spectacular hole but it is unique to its place and time.  We will build a version of the Alps in Bandon but it is very unlikely to be a direct copy.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2006, 08:05:48 AM »
While I enjoy that hole I think, fairly overwhelmingly, golfers hate blind and uphill shots.  Many of our great holes exist because, thankfully, the architect or owner didn't give a hoot about what "others might think" and just did what they thought would be interesting.

But, in a more market driven golf world of "customers" and not golfers, I think the majority would hate that type of  hole.  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2006, 08:38:30 AM »
via Peter Herreid

« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 09:08:30 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2006, 08:44:26 AM »
Tom Doak,

Both Old Marsh and NGLA addressed the safety issue by employing a bell behind the green that is rung when golfers leave the green.

It's my understanding that golfers accept the risks inherent in golf when they play.

At a public golf course I would imagine that this is easy to deal with, no different than when someone rents a golf cart.
In the cart rental agreement there is a waiver of liability clause.
The same clause can be inserted in the fee agreement with the golfer, further insulating the owner from any potential liability.
When you park your car in a garage, on the claim stub that you're given it states that you waive all liability for your car.
The same could be done at a golf course.

In the 100 or so years that golf has been in America, is there ONE single case where an owner or architect was successfully sued because of a safety issue related to the architecture, the design of the golf course ?

If you want to examine what would appear to be an inherent flaw in a design which creates or promotes a safety issue, visit Jasna Polana and play the 1st and 16th holes and let me know what you think.  Or, just go to google earth and take a look.

In confering with some lawyers in N.J. they feel this is a non-issue.  However, that's not to say that some lawyers wouldn't like to make it an issue.

From a design standpoint, the more subdued the hole, the less interesting and challenging it will be.
You can always neuter a hole once it's built.  It's a lot harder to make a modest hole dynamic.  

Don't be timid

Mike Sweeney,

Great picture, it even captures some of the slopes in the fairway.

The hole is straighter than it feels.

The trees on the left are all gone, as are some of those in the backround.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 08:55:18 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2006, 08:58:35 AM »

NGLA addressed the safety issue by employing a bell behind the green that is rung when golfers leave the green.


It is a great thrill to ring THAT bell. Especially knowing what has come before, and what is yet to come.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 09:00:40 AM by Peter Galea »
"chief sherpa"

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2006, 09:09:51 AM »

NGLA addressed the safety issue by employing a bell behind the green that is rung when golfers leave the green.


It is a great thrill to ring THAT bell. Especially knowing what has come before, and what is yet to come.

When did Flynn take out the MacRaynor bell at the 10th at Merion ?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 09:10:52 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Thomas_Brown

Re:The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2006, 10:24:58 AM »
I assumed the 17th at Prestwick was the original and inspiration for the 3rd at NGLA.

I'm not sure the 3rd at NGLA is better than the 17th at Prestwick.  They're both great holes.

Am I mistaken?