[Scott Szabo]

A little spin-off from the great course, bad location and great location, bad course topics.

I haven't had the opportunity to play many of the world's great courses, but wondered if there were "bad" holes among the great courses.  Earlier, when the treehouse was discussing Ballyneal, a few of you mentioned the 9th hole as lacking, or at least not measuring up to the rest of the course.

Other than Ballyneal, the only real "great" course that I've played is Sand Hills. If I had to choose, I would say it would either be 5 or 9 that is least memorable to me.  5 for the approach, and 9 off the tee.

Any others?

[John_Conley]

How about #6 on Pasatiempo?  The course is great, that hole is beyond awful.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm probably putting my head in a noose but I'll nominate number 1 at NGLA.  At today's speeds the green is too sloped.

Number 10 at Shinny.  The second shot leaves me cold.

9 at Oakmont.  It is fun for someone like me to have a go at eagle, but it probably is the weakest hole on the course.

Now mind you I didn't say they were bad holes only the worst holes on a great course.

[Scott Szabo]

Tommy,

That's what I was after.  Many of the holes would not be considered "weak" if they weren't surrounded by so many great ones.  

[Mark_F]

Scott,

This is too simple:

2nd Barnbougle - Uninteresting, with horribly placed drive bunkers that don't even remotely look like they should be there.

4th Kingston Heath - They built all the undulation on a flat site OUTSIDE the area you play from, amongst other sins. Most public courses would have blown it up by now.

17th St Andrews Old - may be a great/unique green complex, but it's a crap green, with a one dimensional approach shot.

[cary lichtenstein]

Weak holes at Pebble:

1,2,3,4,6,7

[Mark_F]

Cary,

Not 11 and 12?

[Tyler Kearns]

2nd Barnbougle - Uninteresting, with horribly placed drive bunkers that don't even remotely look like they should be there.

Mark,

Obviously, the 2nd at Barnbougle suffers from the only mundane piece of property on the whole site. Perhaps the strategy of the hole could be flipped, whereby a drive running near the dunes (a more natural looking location for the fairway bunkers) running parallel along the right hand side of the hole gained the most advantageous angle of approach.

TK

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

Not 11 and 12?

I always liked 11 alot, made a bunch of birdies there, but I like the blind green. 12 is ok

[Mark_F]

Tyler,

I think that is exactly right.

What did you think of the 8th and 16th at Barnbougle?

[Tyler Kearns]

1st hole at Royal Melbourne West

DEVOID OF STRATEGY

This long and wide starting hole is good to let players swing freely and hole out in no more than bogey golf. The solitary bunker is located back right, and apart from being THE ugly duckling amongst its attractive siblings, it does not affect the strategy of the hole. The green generally slopes from back-to-front, which does not typically favour a tee shot played to a particular side of the fairway.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Tyler,

I think that is exactly right.

What did you think of the 8th and 16th at Barnbougle?

Mark,

The two days I spent at Barnbougle, I played the 8th hole either into the wind or into a left-to-right crosswind (neither being the prevailing wind), which made a difficult hole very arduous. The hole is very intimidating from the tee (given the wind conditions I experienced), as Doak & Clayton use the dunes to obscure some of the width of the fairway. I would definitely advise ignoring the posted par for the hole, because trying to make 4 at all cost can yield 6's, 7's or worse!! The length of the hole alone means long-iron or wooded approaches will prevail, and the sharp rise short of the green seems to kill the momentum of a low flung ball. While the upper left hand side of the fairway may negate the shortcomings I just mentioned, I imagine that it makes the second shot blind for many players, which in and of itself is not necessarily blind, but combined with the demands of the next stroke, yikes. In conclusion, it makes for an interesting match play hole, and a card-wreaker of a medal hole - depends which format I am playing.

I admire the fact that the forward tees are afforded to best view from the tee at No. 16. I had a difficult time keeping my ball from skirting to the back edge of the green, which slopes strongly front-left-to-back-right, so if I had anything to complain about, that would be it. However, given the scenery... I assume this delemna was due to the fact that the wind was generally at my back, making it harder to impart sufficient spin on the ball.

TK

[Matthew Delahunty]

I may be in the minority, but I think the first at RMW is a good opening hole. It gives the golfer a chance to get away, it looks straightforward and should be. But it can still gobble the unsuspecting golfer up if he hits the ball above the hole, or too far away on the large putting surface. Perhaps an easy bogey or par, but it the ability to influence the mind before the sterner test to come. (However, as the 17th of the current composite layout it doesn't work and they should think about returning to the former composite routing).

Arguably the 15th at RMW fits into the category. Not an absolutely terrible hole and one worthy enough for the good doctor to leave as is for generations to see the misguided architecture of an era past.

[JohnV]

9 at Oakmont.  It is fun for someone like me to have a go at eagle, but it probably is the weakest hole on the course.

You might have a putt for eagle on #9 at Oakmont, a chip for birdie and end up with bogey.  The green is one of the nastiest there.

[Scott Szabo]

Cary:

#7 at Pebble?  A weak hole?  I've never played it, but many consider it one of the finest short part threes in the world.

[Matt MacIver]

#1 at BP Black?  

I love the elevation of the tee and hitting into the valley, the Sign, the gawkers, the pressure.  But the harshness of the dog-leg doesn't seem to offer many strategies (is it possible to blast OVER the trees -- not for me I don't think), and it doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the fairways, which have much more gentle arcs and slopes.  

[Michael Ryan]

Cary,

I would take 4, 6, and 7 out of your line up at Pebble as bad holes (keeping the others) and add 15.

I think 4 is a good short par 4 that can yield a birdie and also drive you crazy with a small sloped green and trouble all the way up the right hand side.

I may be in the minority on this one, but I like the different strategies that 6 presents, although not a huge fan of blind shots (as the second is).

7 is the only one of these 3 that I would really argue with you on...I think its one of the finest short par 3's in the world, and no I'm not mesmerized by the ocean views, I think taking something off of a wedge shot can be very difficult (seen many fly the green as well as zip well struck wedges off the front) and I have heard many stories of players taking as much as 3 and 4 iron in the wind there.  

I am in agreement on 1, 2, and 3 however.  After paying $475 I was putting on the 3rd green wondering what I got into, luckily I knew what lay ahead.

[Sean Leary]

Weak holes at Pebble:

1,2,3,4,6,7

I disagree with all of these. If there is a worst hole at Pebble I believe it to be 15 or maybe 12... I think 3 is very underrated after playing it a half dozen times now.

[Gary Slatter]

Pebble Beach is a great course with several great holes.  History makes up for the average holes.

[Jonathan Cummings]

2nd Barnbougle - Uninteresting, with horribly placed drive bunkers that don't even remotely look like they should be there.

I'd sure like to hear Brian Schneider weigh in on this....

JC

[bstark]

  After 17 fantastic holes, the 18th at Yale leaves you scratching your head.....

  Forced, shoe-horned, whatever you call it, it don't flow....

[Brad Tufts]

There are a few here in MA...

Myopia....#5 is pretty benign, so is #14...

Essex....#8 is a point of contention...blind drive to a multi-level fairway, a green too small and sloped to receive a longer shot. (although I'm a fan)

Brae Burn....#14 is a flat, straight par 5 of about 475.

TCC...the holes they take out for the composite are fun, so they aren't really the "worst,"  but they are weak.  The holes they remove from the regular course are #9 (blind approach, they use it for the driving range), #10 (280 yard par 4 with a berm in front of the green), and #12 (130-yd drop shot par 3).

Kittansett...there are a couple flattish holes there that get your from one good place to another...

It's tough to have 18 great holes on a course, even if the entire layout is great....all the holes above are not really "bad" though, just less interesting than the others.

[Steve Lapper]

Pebble Beach is a great course with several great holes.  History makes up for the average holes.

If "history" is now a subjective criteria, then so many other courses deserve to be elevated to the status of Pebble. Yes, PB has some absolutely great holes, but it also has quite a few questionable ones...enough, IMHO, to suggest that it falls far below the level of "greatest" courses.

[Mike Benham]

Weak holes at Pebble:

1,2,3,4,6,7

How can you have a great course that has 6 weak holes, that means the other 12 are so outstanding that, well ...

[JSlonis]

23 posts and no mention of the...

Par 3, #12 at Garden City.

It's not that it is a particularly bad hole, it's just that it sticks out because it is so out of character with the rest of the course.

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