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Tom Doak

What do they have in common?
« on: September 27, 2002, 10:24:31 AM »
My quiz for the day goes back to a pet subject.

What do these courses all have in common?

Turnberry
Royal Birkdale
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Baltusrol (Lower)
The Country Club, Brookline
Kiawah Island (Ocean)
Sunningdale (Old)
Quaker Ridge
Cherry Hills

(answer on Monday, I'm off the computer this weekend)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag Bandoon

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2002, 10:42:44 AM »
 They don't let Pets on the course like Cruden Bay does!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2002, 05:58:38 PM »
Anyone got any ideas?

revisions and tinkering:
Turnberry-completely rebuilt after war 47 M. Ross
Royal Birkdale-major rebuild 31 Hawtree
Royal Portrush-revised 46 Colt and Morrison
Royal Troon-modified by Braid
Baltusrol (Lower)-major revision 1953 Trent Jones
The Country Club, Brookline-nine by Flynn-revisions by Rees
Kiawah Island (Ocean)-?
Sunningdale (Old)-revised by Colt
Quaker Ridge-minor revisions Trent Jones
Cherry Hills-minor modifications by Palmer

other ideas:
lack of cart paths? walk only?
important course in their careers?

Are there more than 18 holes at Cherry Hills and Quaker Ridge?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2002, 07:44:07 PM »
Ian- Wonderful answer, I hope your right. Kiawah was just tinkered with this summer. Major changes to the 18th hole and I'm sure there's a  recent thread about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2002, 10:05:34 AM »
Ian -- true enough, but that's not what I was looking for.

274 page views and only two guesses?  Come on guys, dig deeper!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2002, 11:24:31 AM »
Tom,
Their ninth holes don't return to the clubhouse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2002, 11:40:44 AM »
If that's the common characteristic, you can add Donald Ross's Northland Country Club in Duluth. When you play in the Northland Invitational, you really hope you don't have to start one of your rounds on the 10th tee -- it's a five-minute uphill cart ride over a rocky dirt road to reach the 10th tee, which cuts into your practice time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2002, 03:00:52 PM »
I would love to play any one of them tomorrow! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2002, 05:27:46 PM »
They have all hosted Ryder Cups? ??? :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2002, 05:44:13 PM »
Nope,
    Quaker Ridge didn't, they've only hosted a Walker Cup. Some are par 70s, others 72. Going to check out his guide.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

CHrisB

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2002, 05:59:59 PM »
Their longer holes are routed into the prevailing wind?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2002, 07:15:37 PM »
I think Jim Kennedy got it right: their 9th holes don't return to the clubhouse. If I'm not mistaken, Doak's own Stonewall also does not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2002, 07:46:34 PM »
Royal Birkdale, Quaker Ridge and Cherry Hills all have 9th holes that return to the clubouse.  I don't think that is one of TD's "pet subjects" anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2002, 07:51:41 PM »
Kiawah-Ocean's 9th returns to the clubhouse, as does Cherry Hills'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2002, 07:58:17 PM »
First holes that go east?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2002, 09:20:09 PM »
Off the top of my head, I will have a go.

Back to back Par 5s?

Second hole is a Par 4?

All are considering hiring Rees Jones to toughen up the course for championship play?

All have War connections? eg Turnberry-WWII airstrip, Sunningdale-bombed in WWII, Kiawah Island-War on the shore???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Peter Goss

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2002, 06:06:43 AM »
All have at least one green that the correct shot in is not a lobbed sand iron but a lower pitch and run up a slope.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TexasPete

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2002, 09:55:34 AM »
No paved cart paths?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2002, 03:43:56 PM »
OK a couple more tries at it.

Royal Birkdale, Turnberry, Royal Troon, Baltusrol all start 4-4-4. Was Kiawah's second ever a four (Ryder Cup?) and is Sunningdales first a four for tournyments?

None of the six I could look up has a par 3 in the first four holes.

None (that I know of) return after nine. The ones I've played definately don't.

Anyone else with some insight, I can't find much on Quaker Ridge, Country Club and Cherry Hills.

Ian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2002, 05:38:41 PM »
Since I have niether golfed nor seen any of these, I would guess that the pet subject could be routing related. Perhaps no two holes in the exact same direction?

But for the 22 thousand big ones, none have ever been in my kitchen. ;D

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2002, 08:43:20 PM »
Cliff Claven lives!!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2002, 11:04:36 AM »
Whoa, whoa, whoa--I've been thinking about this all day and I think I've got it--matter of fact I'll stake my life on it!!

They all have tees, fairways, greens and bunkers!!

Phew, that's a relieve to finally figure out what they all have in common!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2002, 12:57:48 PM »
They all have "boring" bunkers, and yet they still make the grade as great courses.

So much of what people like is related to the look of a golf course, and I would have to admit that my own personal favorites are rich in detail and beauty.  But the more I get around and see what other people are building nowadays, the more I'm convinced they're trying too hard, particularly in building bunkers.

Clients are all for them, too.  Try telling a client you don't want to build the same beautiful bunkers that Pacific Dunes has!  It's the same as trying to fix them up with a blind date who has a great personality.

We can build them.  I just wish people saw through them more clearly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2002, 01:01:14 PM »
While I'm on a roll, I'll share this little punch list I wrote for a client recently:

Analysis of the Top 50 Golf Courses in the World
(GOLF Magazine, 2001)


19 are par-72 courses
15 are par-71
16 are “others,” mostly 70 or 73

23 return to the clubhouse at the ninth hole;
27 do not, including Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Pinehurst #2 and St. Andrews.

29 have no cart paths at all (20 of these never allow golf carts);
18 have some cart paths, and
3 have continuous cart paths (Pebble Beach, Muirfield Village, and Riviera)

31 have an adjacent practice facility, but
19 do not, including Pebble Beach, Pine Valley, St. Andrews, Sand Hills and Crystal Downs.

12 of the top 50 are less than 6800 yards from the back tees;
15 are between 6800 yards and 7000 yards;
23 can be stretched to 7000 yards for championship play.

28 of the top 50 are built on sand;
Several more are built on sandy loam;
But several are built on clay, including Augusta National, Oakmont, Olympic, and Riviera.

21 of the top 50 have fescue or bent/fescue fairways (all the UK courses plus Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits);
15 of the top 50 have bent grass or bent/poa fairways;
8 of the top 50 have Bermuda fairways (including Augusta, Pinehurst and Royal Melbourne);
4 have ryegrass fairways, 1 zoysia, and 1 kikuyu grass.

48 of the top 50 have bent grass or fescue/bent greens;
Seminole (I think) and Casa de Campo are the only exceptions.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do they have in common?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2002, 01:19:44 PM »
Could you elaborate on what you mean by boring bunkers?

I played Kiawah-Ocean and Pacific Dunes (for the first time each) within 3 months of each other this year, and thought the bunkering (location/look/shapes) of each were nearly identical.  When I played PD (after K-O), I kept saying throughout the rounds that the bunkering looked so much like K-O's.

I also liked a lot of Baltusrol's (Lower) bunkering, such as on holes #2, 8-10, 12, 16-18 (more placement on 17 and 18 front greenside).

Haven't played any of the others.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »