[Patrick_Mucci]

I think that part of the dilema in addressing this question is that posed by the context of the scratch player.

If a scratch player scores 4 under par, does that mean that he wasn't challenged ?

Does that mean that he didn't find the architecture and the golf course interesting ?

[Tom Huckaby]

I think that part of the dilema in addressing this question is that posed by the context of the scratch player.

If a scratch player scores 4 under par, does that mean that he wasn't challenged ?
In just one round it would be tough to jump to that conclusion... if he shoots 272 for 72 holes, perhaps the challenge wasn't great enough... but even then he might have just been playing out of his mind.  I think scores in the lower 60s would be necessary to say he wasn't challenged enough. And even then "challenge" remains in the eyes of the beholder. [/b]

Does that mean that he didn't find the architecture and the golf course interesting ?
That depends completely on the individual and what he means by those terms.  Some very sane people include scenic views and other intangibles in how they assess interest.  But to answer your question outside of being a smartass, I'd say score and interest should be two separate things... or at least they are for the more astute/aware golfers.  So such a scratch could shoot 65 and still find a LOT of interest... [/b]

[Tim Leahy]

Spyglass Hill would be a good example for this question. Considered one the toughest courses on tour, it is only 6800 from the tips. If you took 20 yds from 18 holes I don't think the scores would be affected that much. The only question is do you want to see pros hitting irons from most tees. The big dog is still the most fun to see the pros hit and face it we are obsessed with distance.

[JESII]

I think that part of the dilema in addressing this question is that posed by the context of the scratch player.

If a scratch player scores 4 under par, does that mean that he wasn't challenged ?

Does that mean that he didn't find the architecture and the golf course interesting ?

Pat,

There is no real way to answer these questions but I just looked at Applebrook's website and they have a 6770 yard back tee yardage with par at 71. Just by going through and eyeballing the yardages and the holes I was able to take 250 yards off the total yardage without takng more than 25 from any one hole. The course would retain its interest, in my opinion, very well.

This is the course that hostd the PA Mid-Am this fall which I won. I shot 69-67. only three or four other players broke par with only a handful of single round scores under 70. So to me, the challenge and interest are pretty high at Applebrook for a "short" course.

Now the question is, why?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Terry Lavin-

Take a look at what Jeff Warne had to say about the 'challenge' of a golf hole.

"Could the definition of challenge be broadened not to mean tough, but rather provide a challenge to make a player think about his shot and then execute an interesting shot."

I think this is the real question at hand, and can really equate when talking about courses under 6400 yards.

[Phil Benedict]

6400 yards par 72 is pretty restrictive.  Assuming standard 4, 4, 10 configuration you can get to 6400 with the par fives averaging 500 yards; the par 3's averaging 150 yards and the par 4's averaging 380 yards.  Hard to see how you can get much variety in terms of approach clubs for long hitters unless the design takes driver out of play.  Otherwise mostly wedges and short irons other than on the par 5's.

[JESII]

I guess the land and the elements would be critical to the success of this goal under these parameters as well.

[Bill_McBride]

How long was Painswick, and how many of the low-handicap players disliked its challenge?

4919 yards as I recall, par 67 with two par 5s and 7 par 3s.  I don't think anyone felt unchallenged because of the tiny greens, rough ground and blind shots.  Not just #5 and #10 over the ramparts blind shots, but what about the shot into #8 par 5 where you literally couldn't even see the top of the flagstick!

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I guess the land and the elements would be critical to the success of this goal under these parameters as well.

Exactly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I used 72 as par because that's what par is at ANGC, which was the inspiration for this thread

I was looking at a score card taken from few years ago.

The yardage from the Masters Tees was 6,925.
The yardage from the Members Tees was 6,240

A current score card reflects the following yardages:

Masters Tees    7,445
Members Tees   6,365

With ANGC open from roughly mid-October to Mid-May, basically, fall, winter and spring, the optimal conditions don't arrive until spring, which means that cooler weather, slower greens & fairways and wetter fairways exist until the sun and warmer spring air arrives full time.  This affects play dramatically.

Under the conditions which prevail for most of the season,
at 6,240 or 6,345 the golf course provides incredible interest and challenge.

A schematic dated 1932 shows the Members tees at 6,300.

For approximately 72 years the Members tees have interested and challenged ALL levels of amateur golfers despite their rather static nature.

Before some insist that the challenge is at the putting surfaces, consider the 1st, 3rd, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 17th and 18th putting surfaces, which don't have much in the way of internal contouring.

Is this then part of the genius of RTJ and AM ?

That they were able to craft a golf course for the ages for the amateur golfer ?

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

What are the individual hole yardages at ANGC from the members' tees?

[Bill_McBride]

Here is my composite course - mostly included in the profiles on this web site - that is 6,400 yards from the tips and in my mind would offer endless challenges and a balanced course made up mostly of half par holes.

The short par 4s are tricky and quirky, protected by small greens and deep bunkers in most cases.

The par 3s range from Pasatiempo's 227 yard #3 to Troon's 115 yard Postage Stamp.

The par 5s offer unique challenges - the wide, steeply sloping green at #7 Friars Head; the OB and wind at #14 Royal St Georges, and the tiny, dune protected green at Tobacco Road.  None is a cinch par let alone birdie or eagle.

The long par 4s are brutes - #15 at Oakmont and #17 at the Old Course.  Holes that appear to be medium length such as #2 at Olympic Club's Lakeside course are very difficult at 397 yards as it's straight up hill, into the prevailing wind, and has a small green that's well protected by deep bunkers.  #4 at Bandon Dunes is another tough par 4 at just 400 yards, but the gorse-lined fairway is tight and the tee shot must be just right.

Here it is...actually 6,399 yards...a course that would offer a serious challenge to all players of all skill levels.  And also a very tough walk!  

#1 - National Golf Links       325 yards par 4
#2 - Olympic Club Lake       397 yards par 4
#3 - Pasatiempo                225 yards par 3
#4 - Bandon Dunes            400 yards par 4
#5 - Cuscowilla                 305 yards par 4
#6 - Royal Cinque Ports      325 yards par 4
#7 - Friars Head                540 yards par 5
#8 - Troon                       115 yards par 3
#9 - Cypress Point             320 yards par 4

       Front nine                2952 yards par 35

#10 - Riviera                    300 yards par 4
#11 - St Andrews Old        170 yards par 3
#12 - Rustic Canyon          310 yards par 4
#13 - Tobacco Road          536 yards par 5
#14 - Royal St George        500 yards par 5
#15 - Oakmont                 460 yards par 4
#16 - Pasatiempo              390 yards par 4
#17 - St Andrews Old        461 yards par 4
#18 - Olympic Lake           320 yards par 4

        Back nine               3447 yards par 37

        Total                     6399 yards par 72

[Mike Salinetti]

I feel that the course I am superintendent at, The Country Club of the Poconos, which has had nothing but negitive press from GCA'ers, is a very fun and interesting test of golf at 6,003 yards tipped out. I don't think anyone has commented on this website about us in a few years, but it has always been disliked. It's a Jim Fazio design that I have made quite  a few changes to in the last few years. When I got there in 04 it was way too tight and just some ridiculous holes. I would love to hear what people on this site think about it if they have played there recently.

Mike Salinetti
CC of the Poconos

[Bill Shamleffer]

Next time anyone is in St. Louis, get yourself to Algonquin Golf Club.  You will be amazed how challenging 6,200 yards can be.

http://www.algonquingolfclub.com/

[Patrick_Mucci]

What are the individual hole yardages at ANGC from the members' tees?

Phil,

Current:        Few Years ago

1  365                  
2  515            505
3  340
4  170
5  400            405
6  165
7  330            320
8  480            460
9  395            380

3,160            3,110

10 450
11 400            365
12 145            155
13 455      
14 380
15 475            455
16 145
17 370            350
18 385            375

3,205           3,130

6,365           6,240

[D_Malley]

mike from the poconos
i have heard some very good comments from some pga pros who have played your golf course.  i will try and get up there myself some time soon.  i have a place in the poconos, but have never been to your course.  i really love buck hill, which is probably under 6400.  

also for all the phila guys, if you wnat interest at a short yardage, try  Paxon Hollow @ 5800 yards from the back tee, it will provide all the challenge you need.  with many options off the tee and many greens that are at angles to the line of play.  also  alot of slope on the greens. we had a phila. asst. pro event last year and only two players broke 70.  par is 71

[Mark_Fine]

I am amazed this question has generated over 60 posts    It should have generated ONE with the answer being Yes, next question    

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

Thanks for the info.  For someone with length virtually every par 4 approach would be a wedge and the par 5's could be reached with with mid-to-long irons.  The par 3's are 7-9 irons.  I wonder if this would hold the interest of a low handicap player (with length) over multiple rounds?  Augusta's membership is primarily older gentlemen who probably find it long enough at the members' tees.

[Matt Kardash]

for the majority of golfers...yes
for a really good golfer who can hit the ball pretty far...no, not really

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

A score card doesn't tell the whole story.

I doubt that anybody is hitting a wedge into # 18.

In addition, I don't know how many scratch players would opt for their driver on # 7, 11, and 17.

Why does almost everyone assumes that scratch players hit perfect shots, which is a big mistake.

Getting around the corner on # 13 is no easy task, and the shot from the fairway is very difficult due to the severe pitch of the fairway.  If the ball isn't shaped correctly at # 2, # 5, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 11, # 13, # 14, and # 18, you're in for a more difficult day.

Likewise, getting home in two at # 15 is difficult, especially with water fronting the green and water beyond the green.

At 45 degrees, the golf course plays far differently than at 85 degrees.

The golf course is closed from May until October.

There has to be a reason that the golf course from the Members tees is almost unchanged in 72 years.

Faced with moving back to 7,445 or more, the Members tees will provide all of the challenge necessary.

And, don't forget, handicaps are determined by taking the lowest 10 out of the last 20 scores.  The highest ten scores might evidence some interesting results.

[Doug Siebert]

There's a lot of people getting fixated on scores here.  Whether a course is interesting or challenging has nothing to do with the score one can expect.  If I'm hitting wedges into all the greens, its going to lose a lot of its potential interest and challenge, even if the greens and tiny and wild and I end up shooting an 88.

Likewise if it prevents me from hitting wedges into all the greens by having weird doglegs that turn at 195 yards or narrow corridors with penalty strokes awaiting on both sides of the fairway, that's a strike against it, even if I have a wide variety of approach shots and distances.

That's not to say a shorter course can't offer anyone an interesting challenge, the key is VARIETY.  There should be par 4s of all lengths, but most of the par 4s and 5s will make you think hard before you risk trying to steal a shot by getting to the green in under regulation.  There will be a lot of slope, or wind, or both.  Yes, the greens will be interesting and sometimes being up next to the green in one is the worst possible play if you are in the wrong spot.

The best examples of these courses tend for some reason to have their most difficult holes be the shortest.  Either a postage stamp style par 3 or a 270 yard par 4 you keep trying different strategies on because you know you should be able to birdie it but you seem to write 5 or 6 on your scorecard all too often no matter what plan of attack you employ.

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

The average age of the membership is over 70, which is probably why there is no pressure to lengthen the member tees.

I can't address your specific comments about 7, 11 and 18, but it's fair to say that in most cases approach clubs would be short irons or wedges.  They have added lots of trees to 7 and 11 which may dictate using something other than a driver from the member tees.

I'm sure Augusta would be fun for anyone to play from the member tees.  But we're talking about Augusta National, not some every day course no one has ever heard of.  The original question was general.

To me, the issue is whether a course set up can be consistently interesting if there is limited variety in terms of approach clubs.  That's tough to get with a 6400 yard par 72.

[JESII]

Phil,

Really?

Just working off the template for average yardages posted earlier to get to 6400 yards with 4-4-10 arrangement you could seemingly set up an incredible variety of holes and playing[/i] yardages. That would be where my land and elements position comes in, but still not a requirement.

Architects, I am sure this would be a serious hinderance to your creative abilities, but it also might be an interesting exercise, have you ever tried to work off an average yardage for each par category hole? In other words, do you ever use 180 yards for an average for four par 3's and work the holes out to meet that number?

[Phil Benedict]

Phil,

Really?

Just working off the template for average yardages posted earlier to get to 6400 yards with 4-4-10 arrangement you could seemingly set up an incredible variety of holes and playing[/i] yardages. That would be where my land and elements position comes in, but still not a requirement.

Architects, I am sure this would be a serious hinderance to your creative abilities, but it also might be an interesting exercise, have you ever tried to work off an average yardage for each par category hole? In other words, do you ever use 180 yards for an average for four par 3's and work the holes out to meet that number?

JES,

You could have variety but you would also have extremes - really short par 4's for example in order to accommodate some longer par 4's within this total length contraint.  Referring to the template distances, the average par 4 was 380 yards.  To keep within this average, for every 420 yard 4 you need a 340 yard par 4.  Even a 420 yard par 4 is a drive and a short iron for players like you.

[JESII]

True, but if the land is used really well and some of the long ones go up a hill or into the prevailing wind and all that sort of puzzle piece placement I think it could be done.

The par 5's to me is the tough spot. It seems that the par5's at Augusta would be fun even though they would all be two shotters for me. I can even imagine #13 being a 3 wood and a mid-iron which sort of makes it hard to call it a par 5. Than again, as was said earlier, what difference does the actual par number really make?

I would love to hear that this is an experiment some architects go through on occassion. Certainly more so than what I am sure they get more often from their clients which is "we need to get to 7000 yards because..."

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