Yardage Markers on Sprinklers ?

[THuckaby2]

Lester - that is obviously the best answer.

Unfortunately, here in the US, caddies have indeed become a rare breed... and damn near extinct on public courses.  

TH

[THuckaby2]

Dave, in the words of the great Johnny Carson... I did not know that....

So is this indeed illegal?  I've seen it done many times at tourneys this summer... has a decision been given on this?

"Anywhere" would appear to be pretty damn clear....

TH

[Mike Benham]

As anyone who has played San Francisco Golf Club has noticed, they do not have ANY yardage markers on the course, and if you are a guest, your best piece of information is in the caddy.

Like it or not, yardage markers are part of modern golf ...

[THuckaby2]

Mike:  SFGC remains deliciously pure.

Dave S.:  hmmmm... I believe we do need a decision on this.  Interesting.

TH

[Stan Dodd]

Tom,
From a west coaster, I find the color coded flag system a bit of an insult, combine that with the pin rotation at my course  front middle back (topic of another thread) and you almost take thinking out of the game.  When you hit it like I do I always thougth my advantage was course knowledge  and being able to think my way around the course.  I am for flags all one color and Kirby markers. I guess that makes me a 50% purist.  I too feel it is stupid for 99% of golfers to pace off  what the heck difference does it make 178 or 183?
Cheers
Stan Dodd

[THuckaby2]

Stan: again, I'm not really talking about how I like to play, just what works for the majority of golfers.  Hell yes, I'd personally like every course to be like Merion so that we don't even get the benefit of flags, giving us the wind direction!  But I shudder to think how confused my Santa Teresa mates would be in such a scenario.  Rounds take 5 hours there as it is - don't make it 6 for me, man!

So if front red, middle white, back blue takes away some thinking but gets these guys to choose a club and hit the freakin' ball quicker, then make them purple, chartreuse and pink for all I care.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

And I thought that most conservatives were also libertarians.  Hell, why even put a flag stick in the hole.  Let's all play at night.

Seriously, on my course every sprinkler head within 20 yards of both sides of the fairway and from 300 yards to 50 yards from the CENTER on the green would be marked with a single, legible, easy to maintain distance plate.  My scorecard would show the depth of the green, and a F/B/M pin system would be employed (actual pin sheets for tournaments).  Those whose eyes don't work well, like mine, can use them to their advantage.  For the purists, they don't even need a card, nor should they have to seek sprinkler heads to confound their sharply honed instintcs.  Speed of play- mandated by fiat, less than 4 hours in the weekend mornings; less than 4:15 in the afternoons; much faster during uncrowded times using appropriate etiquette.  To suggest that having good information actually causes slower golf is not real logical.  Indecision, walking up for a better vantage of the green, miscalculating and hitting errant shots surely take more time than locating the nearest sprinkler head, and adding or subtracting for the pin location.  It is not rocket science, and you still have to hit the ball the required distance.

I'm with Mr. Duran, from beginning to end.

Sorry, Shivas. You can't be right all of the time.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Mike, back in my high school golf days, SFGC was our home course (matches always on Mondays of course).  Even then, I had a yardage card for the course that was made by someone that described yardages from various landmarks...bushes, trees, etc.  Probably was made by a caddie, but I got it from some member.  

So it is true that there are no yardages on sprinkler heads or 150 yd markers, but make no mistake....no one out there is guessing about yardages.

[Bob_Huntley]

Thirty or more years ago, I had a caddie at St. Andrews who could no more tell you the distance to the green on any hole there. However, if he gave you a five iron to use, it was advisable to do so, he was never wrong. Now when I go over the demand for yardages, required initially by American players, is de rigeur. I have got three or four different yardage books for TOC, everyone of them with slightly different yardages.

Gene Andrews, what have you wrought?

[Mike Benham]

Kevin,

If I would have known you were on the golf team, I would have asked for more strokes at MB

I agree with you that at SFGC, the members and caddies have their own yardage markers, either mental or written down ... no one is guessing, except the guests ...

[Herb_Flood]

Larry,

Mark every sprinkler you can...also, have 100, 150, and 200 markers that also have the distance to the front and back of the green. The sprinklers should have only distance to the center of the green.

Additionally, mark the sprinklers on the par 5's to as far out as 350-375 yards. That would be great to help with lay up shots.
To hell with those who do not want them...they can ignore the markers.

I strongly disagree with yardage markers slow pace. I use a laser and spend "zero time" pacing off yardage. It allows me to play much faster.

[jim__janosik]

Larry, my instincts tell me you are Larry Rodgers the irrigation designer. Am I right?  Here I hope is clarification to your questions:

1. Center of green is center of green. Some heads are marked with three colors white for middle, blue for back, red for front.

2.  I beleive the measure on a dog leg would be the architects center line of fairway.

3.  They slow down play because of the extra pacing and thinking the average hack does to hit is 167 yard club or whatever.

4.  In california with nearly 2000 heads on a golf course and
    measuring costing $4.00 a head it can get expensive. usually part circles on the perimeter are not done nor any heads on the greens.

If my memory serves me correct is not your name on the irrigation plans for Dos Pueblos?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Herb, devils advocate here.  

You are 375 yds from the green on a par 5.  What extra help is provided to you by knowing that fact?  

Assuming that the hole is 550-600 yards (generous assumption), that means you hit your drive 175-225 yds.  If so, lets assume you normally hit your 3 wood 225 yds (another generous assumption).  That leaves you 150 yds to the green.  If that is the case, why would you need to know that you were 375 yds from the green if hitting it as far as you can still leaves you 150 yds from the hole?

[Herb_Flood]

Kevin,

After giving this more thought, I stand corrected that 350-375 is indeed a bit much; but, having 300-325 is more in line.

I do stand by my other statements.

[Steve Lang]

I'd blame excessive pre-shot routines more than yardage markers for slow play, but... on topic IMHO:
 

Some of you folks can very brutal with comments so I have been careful on past posts, however the subject of yardage markers on sprinklers has come up and it seems everyone has an opinion.
I am doing a final walk-thru on a newly constructed course and the irrigation specifications calls for the irrigation sprinklers to have yardage markers on them.

Does this take away or enhance the golfing experience?
- Doesn't hurt, often helps.  On our new Player course they have middle, front and back yardages noted.  On Oaks, there's side-faiway markers every 25 yards from 200 in... plus pin sheets.

Does this slow play?
- No.  I've seen folks take more time when there's nothing available and they ponder excessively.  And more often than not come up short, typically adding another shot to the round.

Does this take away from the skill?
- Probably, but isn't there enough demand already?

Should they be to the front or middle of the green?
- Allways give me the middle.  I believe that's USGA approach for course rating exercises, middle of teee to middle of green.

Where is the middle exactly? front to back and at which approach angle?
- I'd relate to a "center of gravity" type concept on intended line of architect's design, but I'm biased.

Where should they start and stop?
- 200-250 if to a fronting water hazard or end of fairway especially, and at 50 yards.

Are they only needed in the fairway?
- Yes, I've cursed 150 yard bushes more than once... Put 200, 150, and 100 paint or markers on the cart path!

If the hole has a dogleg, just where is the turning point to determine the length of the hole?
- Aren't total yardages being shot from center of fairway?

Thank-you for allowing this post and I hope not to be crucified by too many traditionalists as the question comes up during the planning stages.

[Larry_Rodgers]

Yes this Larry Rodgers the irrigation designer in Denver, whose name appears on the Dos Pueblos Plans in Goleta, CA. It appears there is no agreeable answer on the marking of sprinklers Other than they are a neccessary evil. The average course does mark between 500 and 700 sprinklers mostly in the fairway and Par 3's.
On many occations the turning point is only be determined by the original architect during construction. On many occations when we GPS mapped a course we have provided yardages, greens, tees, fairways, water features and sand bunker square footages. On an older course that was once a tour stop, the members were in an outrage over the yardage of the course. It seeems that the distance off of the tee to a turning point is not a standard 266 yards or any other measurement and I was looking for opinions on just where is this turn point that will effect the yardage of a golf hole.
Thank-you for all of the wonderful feedback.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dave,
To understand this rule you have to look at all of the rule. Wording in 8-2a helps to explain 8-2b.

 8-2. Indicating Line of Play
 a. Other Than On Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one shall be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being played. Any mark placed during the play of a hole by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line shall be removed before the stroke is played.  

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green shall not be touched. No mark shall be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

It seems an easy progression of thought to understand that "A player or caddie may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing  the putting green shall not be touched" and  "No mark shall be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting" has nothing to do with the ball or any equipment of the player's. It only relates to physically touching the putting green in an area that may be construed as "The Line".
 
Using the premise that all shots in golf are to targets, and it is these target lines that are the subject of this rule, might help you to understand why it is that no person or thing is allowed to remain on these lines during a shot. A line or mark on equipment or balls is not going to aid a player in hitting the ball on the target line, therefore no rule against them.

If this were not the case you could melt down all the two-ball putters and take the < off the crown of your driver.

[js]

Agree 100% w/ Herb

also...

Having a line on the ball slows up play?

How so?

For years players have been lining up the manufacturer's logo, what is the difference?

[mike_beene]

I used to use the logo to line up.Then, at the Open at Southern Hills I followed Faxon his entire round on Friday to get a good look at the course.He lined up,remarked,relined so many times it drove me crazy.I must have done the same to my playing partners.Plus,now I can put from the fringe without freaking out.For Harvey Penick's thoughts,see page 98 of the green(second) book.

[ChipOat]

Kevin Reilly:

If you're a disciple of St. Dave Pelz and hit "distance wedges" according to his method, you're very pleased to have precise measurements from 40-100 yards.  Of course, you still have to know where the flag is relative to the measured distance.


To all:

To me, if you're going to have even 1 distance indicator per hole (usually a tacky looking 150 bush/birdhouse/pine tree, etc.) then just do all the sprinklers from 40-275 and get rid of the bushes and rainbow plates.

Where there are no markers (SFGC, PV, Merion, etc.), then a good yardage book will do - caddie or not.

Why do I favor some way to know yardages instead of the old Ben Hogan "drag on a cigarette and figure it out" method?

USGA and R&A rules permit asking yardages from fixed objects as "public knowledge".  If you're allowed to know it under the rules, why not have it available?

Under the same logic, having "pin sheets" available on the first tee makes sense to me as well.

[js]

Dave,

You don't need John Daly...how about Rich Beem?

[Bob_Huntley]

Dave:

For the average golfer pin sheets are a joke. For gosh sakes they can't hit two shots on a fairway within thirty yards of each other and then to talk of +9 from the middle etc. It's laughable.

[MainelyJack]

I agree with Dave several pages ago - red, white and blue plates are all anyone should need. However, in our GPS society we seem to have the "need to know" whether it is an 87 yard shot or a 91 yard shot, notwithstanidng that few of us can dial it in like that.

How many times have you been on a new course which has everything marked that is permanently located and seen this:

Joe: Hey guys, it says 132 yards from here. What have you got?

Ted: Over here is 149. You sure that says 132?

Bob: 118 from here.

Bill: Really? Doesn't look like it.

Joe: Yuh - it says 132, but just over there it is 143 and it looks much further than that.

That goes on for the time it should have taken for all four of them to hit and move along.

Colored flags are ok. My course uses the indicator flag which relys on the kid changing the hole to remember to make the change. Then there is the time where the kid thinks it is a front flag and the player on reaching the green says it is middle and fumes on.

Players today are not very self reliant and I can understand there are variations in eyesight, but too much of a good thing is just that. Give enough to inform people to make reasonable judgements and go play. It's just a game.

[MainelyJack]

I've got his book - he never convinced me of that. Maybe if I paid $3000 for some lessons instead of $75 for the book I would be one of them. You need to have advanced calculus to understand the book.

[Steve Hyden]

Now that it's accepted practice I guess courses should have them.  I look for them on new courses I play.  Probably does speed up play, too.  But the game was more interesting in the days before yardages (I learned the game on a course that didn't even have 150 yd. markers-now it has wall to wall paved cartpaths-how sad).  Anyway, some years ago, fellow GCA member Mike Choate and I played Woodhall Spa (as great as described), and they were out of those cool Strokesaver yardage books that most UK/Ireland couses have.  So we were forced to eyeball every shot and that made us concentrate extra hard.  It enhanced the experience and damn, we got most of 'em right.