[Ari Techner]

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Crystal Downs
3. Shoreacres
4. San Francisco GC
5. Pinehurst #2
6. Lookout Mountain GC
7. Pebble Beach
8. Oakland Hills South
9. Franklin Hills
10. Pasatiempo
11. Olympic Club Lake
12. Bandon Dunes
13. Eugene CC

I have limited my list to courses I have actually played.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Ari,

I got the impression that you were not a fan of the "restoration" of Franklin Hills.  Those are some great courses you have behind it..

[Doug Bolls]

1. TOC
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Ballybunion Old
4. Pebble
5. Muirfield
6. Doonbeg
7. Lahinch
8. Pinehurst #2
9. Tobacco Road
10. Waterville
11. Prairie Dunes
12. Trailee

[RSLivingston_III]

Only courses I have played and listed alphabetically,

Chicago GC
Crystal Downs
Cruden Bay
Kingsley
Lawsonia Links
Machrihanish
North Berwick
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
The Old Course, St. Andrews

[Ari Techner]

Ari,

I got the impression that you were not a fan of the "restoration" of Franklin Hills.  Those are some great courses you have behind it..

John,

Mostly I am not a fan of calling the work a "restoration" because it was very far from that.  Franklin never had steep grass face bunkers and it never had fairway bunkers in many of the places that they are now.  I am concerned that with Ron Pritchard going around and adding these steep grass face bunkers to a large segment of the great Ross courses that this will eventually be looked at as a major Ross feature when I do not believe that it really is.  With that being said, and after I got a chance to get over the unwanted change, I think the "new" Franklin IS a better plaing golf course than the "old" Franklin.  Especially for the better player.  (the bunkers are a bit severe for some of the older members)  Mainly I think they improved a couple of the weaker holes especially the 17th which was the weak link before.  Now it is a nice multi route par 4 with the option of playing safe around the water to the right and having a tough long shot into the green or challenging the pond and some deep bunkers on the drive to have a much shorter shot and better angle into the green.  All they had to do was move the tee back 20 yards or so and take out a bunch of trees which opened up the route over the water.  They also made the par 5s a little more challenging which was needed and added some width in spots where the trees had grown in a bit too much.  A good subtle example is the 10th which they removed trees on the right side, in the rought between the 8th and 10th fwys and moved to the right.  This gave the fairway some nice movement and brought some neat natural mounding into play just off the fairway in the right rough.  With all respect to Pasi, Olympic, Bandon and ECC I would rather take on Franklin than any of those 4 on a daily basis and that is how I based my ratings for this.  

[Peter Pratt]

Bump. I'd love to see the updated totals.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Bump. I'd love to see the updated totals.

The opening post to this thread said closing date was today (not sure whether US/UK/Aussie time) so we shouldn't have long to wait!!

[Matthew Hunt]

Bump

I will finish it soon

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Only courses I have played or spent enough time on to know.
1. TOC
2. Cypress Point
3. Sand Hills
4. ANGC
5. NGLA
6. R County Down
7. Macrihanish
8. Royal Dornoch
9. Rye
10. Turnberry Ailsa
11. Troon
12. St Edonoc
13 N. Berwick
14. Shinnicock Hills
15. Pacific Dunes
15a. Olympic Lake, Champions, Mountain Lake, Oakbourne CC, Bayou Desaird CC, home courses
 

[wsmorrison]

1.   Shinnecock Hills
2.   Merion East
3.   Pine Valley
4.   The Old Course
5.   Sand Hills
6.   Royal Dornoch
7.   Oakmont
8.   Royal St. Georges
9.   North Berwick
10. Swinley Forest
11. Indian Creek
12. Kittansett

[Rick Shefchik]

I would certainly hope to strengthen this list somewhat while I can still play the game, but in the meantime, these are the best courses I've played in my 54 years:

1. TOC
2. Sand Hills
3. Pebble Beach
4. Hazeltine
5. Somerset
6. Sutton Bay
7. Northland
8. Pasatiempo
9. White Bear Yacht Club.
10. Interlachen
11. Lawsonia
12. Talking Stick North


Clearly, I need to play more on the East Coast, and in Scotland/Ireland, but one needs goals.

Merry Christmas to all.  

[Steve Lapper]

My holiday list (wish I could be back at any right now!):

1. Royal Melbourne Composite
2. Sand Hills
3. Cypress Point
4. Pine Valley
5. Royal Dornoch
6. Royal County Down
7. Ye Olde Course
8. Merion East
9. Royal Portrush
10. Shinnecock Hills
11. Ballybunion
12. Prairie Dunes

Rounding out the the top 25...just for the heck of it: Oakmont,
Friars Head, Fishers Island, Muirfield (RCEG), NGLA, Pacific Dunes, Kingston Heath, LACC North, Royal St. Georges, New South Wales

Happy Holidays to all!

[Peter Pratt]

Matthew,

Could you do the tallies? I'd love to see them.

Thanks very much!

Peter

[Matthew Hunt]

Below is the latest tally I have had time to do.

Please point out mistakes I may have made.

List up to Post #40

1. St Andrews Old 116 pts
2. Pine Valley 100
3. Sand Hills 93
4. Royal Dornach 86
5.Merrion 80
6. NGLA 79
7.Royal County Down 74
8. Pacific Dunes 68
9.Cypess Point 55
10. Muirfield 45
11. Royal Melbourne(West) 44
12.Winged Foot (East)41
13. Crystal Downs 35
14. Ballybunion 33
15. Ballyneal 31
16. Pinehurst #2 31
17. Woodhall Spa  29
18. Kingsby Club 28
19.Teeth  of Dog 22
20. Augusta National 21
21. Whistling Straits 20
22. Victoria National 18
23. Bethpage Black 18
25. Pebble Beach 17
26. Shinnlock Hills 16
27. Sunningdale Old 16
28. Turnburry (Alisia) 16
29. The Golf Club 15
30. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
31. Royal Cinque Ports 15
32. The Ocean Course 15
33. Oakmount 14
34. SFGC 13
35. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
36. Wolf Run GC 12
37. Bandon Trails 11
38. Royal Portrush 11
39. Black Wolf Run GC
40. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
41. Royal Birkdale 10
42. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
43. TPC at Sawgrass 9
44. Tobacco Road 9
45. Hoylake 8
46. Machrihans 8
47. GreyWalls 8
49. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
50. Banff Springs 8
52. Bandon Dunes 7
53. Dancing Rabbit – Oaks 7
54. High Pointe 7
55. Sandwich 7
56. Metropolitan, Vic 7
57. Point O'Woods GC 7
58. Wild Horse 6
59. French Lick 6
60. Parrie Dunes 6
61.Royal St Georges 6
62. New South Wales 6
63.  Kinloch
64. Arcadia Bluffs 6
65. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
66. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
67. Yale 5
68. Bandon Dunes 5
69. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
70. Pennard 5
71. Garden City GC 5
72. Fishers Island 5
73. North Berwick 5
74. Burnham and Berrow 5
75. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
76. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
77. BCC Five Farms 4
78. The European Club 4
79. Carnoustie (Championship)4
80.  Pasatiempo 4
81. Camargo 4
82. Senione 4
83. WWPB 4
84. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
85. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
86. Apache Stronghold 3
87. Peeping Rock 3
88. Royal Adelaide 3
89. Palmetto 3
100. Cascades 3
101. K Club 2
102. Lahninch 2
103.  Riviera 2
104. The Country Club 2
105. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
106. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
107. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
108. Newport National 2
109. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
110. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
111. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
112. Kilkeel 1
113. Winchester GC 1
114. Boston Golf Club 1
115. Rye 1
116. Royal St. Kitts 1
117. Wolf Point Club 1
118. We-Ko-Pa 1

[Kyle Henderson]

1-Cypress Point
2-Pine Valley
3-NGLA
4-Pacific Dunes
5-Tobacco Road
6-Sand Hills
7-Shinnecock Hills
8-TOC
9-Royal County Down
10-Cape Kidnappers
11-Whistling Straights- Straits
12-Black Mesa

[Matthew Hunt]

List up to Post #50

1. Sand Hills 165 pts
2. St Andrews Old 157
3. Pine Valley 132
4. Merrion 110
5. NGLA 108
6. Royal Dornach 98
7. Royal County Down 97
8. Pacific Dunes 90
9. Cypess Point 76
10. Royal Melbourne(West) 65
11. Ballybunion 64
12. Shinnlock Hills 61
14. Crystal Downs 53
15. Muirfield 51
16.Winged Foot (East)43
17. Pebble Beach 41
18. Pinehurst #2 38
19. Ballyneal 33
20. Kingsby Club 32
21. Woodhall Spa  32
22. Sunningdale Old 25
23. Parrie Dunes 23
24. Whistling Straits 22
25. Teeth  of Dog 22
26. The Ocean Course 22
27. Augusta National 21
28. Turnburry (Alisia) 19
29. Friars Head 19
30. Victoria National 18
31. Bethpage Black 18
32. SFGC 18
33. North Berwick 17
34. Royal Portrush 16
35. The Golf Club 15
36. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
37. Royal Cinque Ports 15
38. Oakmount 14
39. Yale 14
40. Bandon Dunes 13
41. Garden City GC 13
42.Royal St Georges 13
43.  Pasatiempo 13
44. Carnoustie (Championship) 12
45. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
46. Wolf Run GC 12
47. Lahninch 11
48. Bandon Trails 11
49. TPC at Sawgrass 11
50. High Pointe 10
52. Black Wolf Run GC 10
53. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
54. Royal Birkdale 10
55. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
56. Tobacco Road 9
57. Mayacama 8
58. Hoylake 8
59.  Riviera 8
60. Sebonack 8
61. Machrihans 8
62. GreyWalls 8
63. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
64. Banff Springs 8
65. Cruden Bay 7
66. Dancing Rabbit – Oaks 7
67.  Kingston Heath 7
68. Sandwich 7
69. Preswick 7
70. Metropolitan, Vic 7
71. Point O'Woods GC 7
72. Rolling green 6
73. Wild Horse 6
74. French Lick 6
75. New South Wales 6
76.  Kinloch 6
77. Arcadia Bluffs 6
78. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
79. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
80.Winged Foot(West)5
81. Bandon Dunes 5
82. Maidstone 5
83. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
84. Pennard 5
85. Fishers Island 5
86. Burnham and Berrow 5
87. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
88. Rustic Canyon 4
89. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
90. BCC Five Farms 4
91. The European Club 4
92.  Barnbougle Dunes 4
93. Camargo 4
94. Senione 4
95. WWPB 4
96. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
97. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
98. Apache Stronghold 3
99. Olympic 3
100. Peeping Rock 3
101. Royal Adelaide 3
102. Palmetto 3
103. Cascades 3
104. K Club 2
105. The Country Club 2
106. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
107. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
108. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
109. Newport National 2
110. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
111. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
112. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
113. Kilkeel 1
114. Winchester GC 1
115. Boston Golf Club 1
116. Rye 1
117. Royal St. Kitts 1
118. Wolf Point Club 1
119. We-Ko-Pa 1
120.  Sutton Bay 1
121. Wanamoisett GC 1

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.

When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses.  Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten.  But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!

Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.

Don't feel too bad.  This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved.  That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.

[Matthew Hunt]

Matthew:

I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.

When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses.  Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten.  But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!

Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.

Don't feel too bad.  This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved.  That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.

I think to combat this the final list should be top 50.

This list is an Experement and I hope a full Ratings could follow on.

[Matthew Hunt]

Congratulations Tom, you seem to be the most successful architect on the list.

[Adam_F_Collins]

To keep Mucci off my leg, I'll only list courses I've played - and that I think should be in the world list.

1. Highlands Links
2. St. Georges

[Brian Cenci]

For what it's worth of what I've played (here's my top 25):

#1  - Whistling Straits(Straits)
#2  - Bandon Dunes
#3  - Crystal Downs
#4  - Prairie Dunes
#5  - Pacific Dunes
#6  - Bandon Trails
#7  - Arcadia Bluffs
#8  - Wolf Run
#9  - Whistling Straits(Irish)
#10 - Greywalls
#11 - Pine Needles
#12 - Tanglewood Park (Championship)
#13 - Blackwolf Run(River)
#14 - Oakland Hills
#15 - Kingsley Cub
#16 - Tobacco Road          
#17 - Harvester Golf Club
#18 - Victoria National Golf Club
#19 - Eagle Eye
#20 - Olympia Fields
#21 - Golf Club at Redlands Mesa
#22 - Lakota Canyon Ranch and Golf Club
#23 - Forest Dunes
#24 - Wild Horse
#25 - World Woods (Pine Barrons)

[Ed Tilley]

Matthew:

I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.

When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses.  Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten.  But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!

Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.

Don't feel too bad.  This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved.  That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.

Or, you could require a minimum number of mentions.  Of a group this size perhaps 3-5 minimum mentions of a course is reasonable before it hits the list.

Ciao

You need to have a list of courses, say the top 50 from this post. Everyone needs to rate the courses they have played on the list out of 10 based on an agreed scale. Each course will then have an average score. This will eliminate the problem of very few people having played Cypress Point relative to Pebble Beach.

Of course, given that I gave St.Enodoc 6 points, and it doesn't appear on the list, I can see that no-one takes any notice of me.  

[ForkaB]

This list is for fun, and not a candidate for a Nobel Prize in statistical correctness.  Same goes for Golf Mag, Golf World and Golf Digest, or course, as I'm sure Tom Doak, Brad Klein and Ron Whitten will attest.

You could probably "correct" the data comparing posters' experience with aggregate "ratings," but who cares?  Not me.

[Matthew Hunt]

I think I have learned from this that another system is needed when we do it again.

I once saw a voting system, were everyone gives every course they have played a rating which is averaged and put into ranking, Does anyone know were we can get a similar system.

Matthew

PS. Last chance to vote is today

[Jim Franklin]

It is painfully obvious that not enough GCA folks have played Oakmont, Augusta, or Cypress Point.

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