18th at Cypress Point

[James Bennett]

Nice work Martin, you should add that to your GCA CV.  Alistair would be proud.

Tom Huckaby

but if the ocean is not a hazard, and it is not out of bounds, then it must be casual water (or can the ocean be an integral part of the course?).  And you cannot lose a ball in casual water - you get relief where the ball went in ( which is probably at the edge of the tee, so you would be playing two, and be about to hit another ball into the ocean from the un-teed lie  ).

James B

[Marty Bonnar]

But James,
what do you mean? This is REAL!

Actually, speaking as one of the few around these here parts to actually have had the pant-wettingly good fortune to have done some work on a 'Real MacKenzie', let me say it is easily the SCARIEST thing I have ever done.

'Dum, dum, dum, duh du du duh...Under PRESSURE!

FBD.

[Jon Spaulding]

Mike, check out this video link....some footage of Ghost Tree from 2005. The picture certainly has some swell, but this is teh real deal.   They probably closed CP at 15 tee to the clubhouse on this day!

http://surfline.com/video/vids/2005/mar/jsps/ghosttree_dl_wm.cfm

[Tom Huckaby]

Nice Tom Huckaby

but if the ocean is not a hazard, and it is not out of bounds, then it must be casual water (or can the ocean be an integral part of the course?).  And you cannot lose a ball in casual water - you get relief where the ball went in ( which is probably at the edge of the tee, so you would be playing two, and be about to hit another ball into the ocean from the un-teed lie  ).
James B

Hmmmm.. can't see how we can call it casual water.  Here's the definition of that:


Casual Water
“Casual water’’ is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is visible before or after the player takes his stance and is not in a water hazard. Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player. Manufactured ice is an obstruction. Dew and frost are not casual water. A ball is in casual water when it lies in or any part of it touches the Casual water.


The ocean there is hardly temporary unless one thinks in terms of millenii (plural of millenium - god I love Latin).

TH

[James Bennett]

Tom Huckaby

A hah!  So the error in my logic was to think that water was either defined as a hazard, or as casual water.  Whereas it seems it is allowed to be part of 'through the green'.  "Temporary" is the key word isn't it.

So, if I lose my ball in any water area on any course where the water is not a 'temporary accumulation' and the Committee have not defined it as a water hazard, then I have a 'lost ball'.

thanks.

James B

[Tom Huckaby]

James, I am FAR from a rules expert - but we have a few great ones who do participate here so maybe they'll see this and weigh in.

I do think "temporary" is the key word, and you have this correct now.

But as for why CPC does what they do, well... of course mine is just a guess!

TH

[David Stamm]

Mike, check out this video link....some footage of Ghost Tree from 2005. The picture certainly has some swell, but this is teh real deal.   They probably closed CP at 15 tee to the clubhouse on this day!

http://surfline.com/video/vids/2005/mar/jsps/ghosttree_dl_wm.cfm

Wow! So much for the new tee after that swell!

[Lou_Duran]

Jon,

Great video clip.  Crazy people, but what a rush it must be.  Where is Ghost Tree exactly?

Huck,

That may be, but do you recall Michelsen hitting a ball into the left hazard at Torrey Pines #13, hitting a provisional, someone in the gallery or a marshall finding the original (to his chagrin), then having to play his found ball, taking the unplayable lie option (went back to the tee)?  Is anyone aware of another course that treats the ocean or an adjoining body of water like CPC?

BTW, why do courses use drop areas for par 3s (e.g. the island greens at TPCs in Jacksonville and Palm Springs)?  

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:

In the Mickelson incident, the area he hit into was not marked as hazard - thus the provisional and other events that followed.  If it were hazard, it would have played out very differently.

Re drop areas, my guess is that's for speed of play also, given in many situations it would otherwise be difficult to determine exact point of entry and thus where to drop.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon,

Great video clip.  Crazy people, but what a rush it must be.  Where is Ghost Tree exactly?

Huck,

That may be, but do you recall Michelsen hitting a ball into the left hazard at Torrey Pines #13, hitting a provisional, someone in the gallery or a marshall finding the original (to his chagrin), then having to play his found ball, taking the unplayable lie option (went back to the tee)?  Is anyone aware of another course that treats the ocean or an adjoining body of water like CPC?

BTW, why do courses use drop areas for par 3s (e.g. the island greens at TPCs in Jacksonville and Palm Springs)?  

 

Ghost Tree is right at the corner of the headland at Pebble. You can see the waves breaking out there from the course (normally much smaller). There's also a small 17-mile signage as a vista point, on the road from PB to CP. The guys doing this are not only crazy, but very talented with large balls!

Also, I find it oddly coincidental that 2 of the 3 premier big wave spots on the West Coast can be seen from good golf courses...Ghost Tree can be seen from Pebble, and Mavericks from HMB Ocean (albeit with some binoculars). Now if they could just build a course on Todos Santos off of Ensenada in Mexico.....

[JohnV]

Tom has asked me to respond to the rules questions here.

The Pacific Ocean is a water hazard, whether it is marked as one or not (Dec 26/2).

The area in between the tee and the green is a regular water hazard.  Behind the green would normally be a lateral hazard, but the club could define it as a regular water hazard (26/3 and 26/4).  If they did so, they could establish a drop area so that the player doesn't have to go back to the tee (probably at the start of the 17th fairway which would leave a pitch over the beach).  The USGA made the hazard right of #8 green at Pebble a regular hazard and didn't put in a ball drop in the Amateur or the Open.

They could include the beaches in the water hazards if they wanted to.  If I were staking it, I would run the stakes along the cliff top and make the beaches part of the hazard.

I believe that Cypress Point tried to define the ocean as out of bounds at one point (or at least the beach behind the green).  The USGA said that wasn't valid, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it.  If someone can check a scorecard from there and see if they have anything stated as a local rule it would be helpful.

There is a local rule which allows the playing of a provisional for a ball that might be in a water hazard.  It can be found on page 92 of the current Rules of Golf.  This can be used to save time so that players don't have to walk all the way back to the tee, but they do give up some of their options if it is used.

When Phil Mickelson hit the shot left at 17 at Torrey Pines, it was not marked as a hazard.  The PGA Tour has gone back and forth with that over the years.  It is arguable whether it should be marked or not.  I doubt the USGA would mark it, but we'll see in 2008.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:  whew!  Many thanks.  I knew I was in way over my head here.

Further question - it's such a famous spot and the rules issues are so weird, bear with me.  

I am pretty certain they call the ocean "part of the course."  I think it was on a sign... but it may well be on the scorecard.  Assuming this is contrary to the rules per Dec 26/2, would it be somehow OK if they made this a local rule?

Also, couldn't one make the converse argument that the ocean IS NOT part of the "course" and thus balls hit into it are out of bounds?  To do this, one just says the boundary of the course stops at the shoreline, or cliff-line.  Then by definition it's not water hazard... Strange way to do it, for sure... but isn't there some logic to this?  I'm not seeing in Dec 26/2 that this does NOT work.... Decs 26-2 and 26-3 would seem to just say it's the Committees responsibility to mark hazards correctly, and if they don't it's still a hazard - assuming it meets the definition of such.  For others following this, here's that definition:


A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.

The key words - for this argument anyway - being "on the course".

All the rest turns on this... but assuming CPC is just being weird or contrary or whatever and not correctly marking this as hazard, what are we to do when the course wants us to do something that isn't correct per the rules of golf?  Of course in this case, as a guest we damn well do what we are told... But one would have to assume that in competition this would be clarified, no?

Thanks also for clarification re use of provisionals for ball that might be in water hazard.  I had seen that done... but I thought it was either done incorrectly or under some other local rule or something.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Jon,

Where specifically would I stand at PBGL to see the surf captured in the video?  Is there beach access to it, or are the "talented" and well-endowed surfers towed or boated in?

Tom,

I am still confused.  If the whole ocean is deemed to be a regular water hazard, wouldn't a shot left of the green allow for a drop where it last crossed the boundary no closer to the hole (within two clubs of where you can take a stance, or as far back as you wish on a line of that point and the pin)?  If unmarked, I was under the impression that the waterline is then deemed to be the boundary.

As to the issue of verifying whether the ball entered and was lost in the hazard, do the rules not follow a reasonable man doctrine with that determination made by the player in consulation with his playing partners and/or opponents?

It is possible for a ball to be lost in the ice plant and natives short of the water, so I suppose that the determination may be uncertain.  And perhaps this is the reason for the club adopting its stance, which, in the absence of OB stakes or mention on the card, I think is that the ocean is part of the course.

On another rules issue, if a ball lodged in a tree is reasonably identified by its distinct markings, can one take a drop without actually retrieving the ball?  If so, where is the nearest point of relief?  Immediately below its place in the branch?

[Marty Bonnar]

Scorecard Quotation:
Local Rules
"Ocean holes 15, 16 and 17. Cliff and beach played as part of the course, and not water hazard. Deer prints can be repaired on greens only".

all clear?
FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:

Most of those are questions for JV, and as you see I have questions for him about this great golfing spot also.  All of this turns on CPC seemingly taking a position that is contrary to the rules of golf.  In any case, note re my speculation as to calling it part of the course to avoid uncertainties and walks up to check things out, well... JV points out that they could rectify this by using the local rule to allow provisionals in the case of a water hazard!  But this is pretty recent, and I'd bet anything CPC's calling the ocean part of the course goes way back... and given they so rarely (if ever) host competitions, there's no incentive for them to change.  They do what they do, the members are fine with it, there you go.

So Martin, thanks for the scorecard quote.  Boy if they want cliff and beach to be played as "part of the course" which is also what I recalled, this really brings up some oddities under the rules.

I'm just guessing they don't care too much about strict adherence to the rules about this...  seems logical no?

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Tom,

I am not arguing at all for change, but just seeking information.  Except for tournaments, I am all for playing golf under rules deemed appropriate by those directly involved.  CPC can and should do whatever it wants.  Those who don't like it, well, they can just take their business elsewhere.

Actually, Martin's quote of the local rule does create some isolated, but nonetheless interesting situations.  For example, say you pull the ball left and see it on the beach in the small cove.   But before you can get a sand wedge from your caddie who's too busy attending to his other client on the other side of the green, a wave washes your ball out to sea.  Should you be able to declare the ocean to commence at the point where that wave last reached the sand and take a drop under the applicable water hazard rules?  I know someone who that actually happened to and the pin location and original position of the ball allowed for a drop back on land or on the beach under the rules.

Okay, it is arcane and I've way belabored the issue.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:  understood - and I think we both are just seeking information.  But you're right, the way they have this does bring up all sorts of weird rules possibilities.  

I think I know the person in that odd situation you describe... I think I was there to witness it.  

[Lou_Duran]

Along with the East Coast Lefties?

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes - you, me, Cirba, Childs.  A very, very fine day.  I recall your plight pretty well.  Talk about a weird rules situation....

 

[Lou_Duran]

Yes, what a motley crew!  Huge wind, 11 - 14 were monsters, and collecting from my nemesis for a change made the day that more memorable.  Life was good then!  

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes, what a motley crew!  Huge wind, 11 - 14 were monsters, and collecting from my nemesis for a change made the day that more memorable.  Life was good then!  

You did indeed collect - well deserved.