GOLF Magazine 2006 Best New Top 10 - Lederach Golf Club

[Mike_Sweeney]

Do any of our Golfweek guys have access to the full list? I understand that Kelly Moran's Lederach GC, made the list which comes out this month.

Congratulations to Kelly, perhaps all the architects should stop posting on GCA.com!  

[Kyle Harris]

Very good news, very good indeed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Why would GolfWeek guys have access to a Golf Magazine feature?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Why would GolfWeek guys have access to a Golf Magazine feature?

Well is was a typo, but they still might have it. I know John "The Rater Cop" Kavanaugh must have it!

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the past, Matt Ward has told me about my Golf Digest wins privately within a day of the magazine telling me, so those things do seem to leak out, despite what I presume are the respective magazines best efforts.

Normally, they swear us to secrecy, but since the magazine will be published this week, according to Golf, I can say I got an email last week from Golf telling me that Sand Creek Station in Newton, KS also made the list.  

From that and Kelly's course, I presume this is Golf's "Top Ten Best New You Can Play" (i.e. Public) list?  If not, having two moderate fee public courses on the top ten list would be a surprising coup, no?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

You beat me to the scoop.

The full list is to be released on December 12 when the magazine is on the stands and in the mail.

This is great news for KBM and Lederach.

By the way, the 9th green at Lederach is being expanded to create more pin positions. I saw the construction yesterday but didn't have a camera.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm really encouraged to see a course that "different" being recognized for the daring, innovatively creative throwback it is.   I was pretty sure that not many folks would "get it", not to sound condescending, but after all, as I mentioned way back when, it really is the antithesis of modern golf notions.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm really encouraged to see a course that "different" being recognized for the daring, innovatively creative throwback it is.   I was pretty sure that not many folks would "get it", not to sound condescending, but after all, as I mentioned way back when, it really is the antithesis of modern golf notions.  

Now that someone besides you has agreed to praise this course maybe you can stop with the backhanded compliments.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I never gave Lederach a "back-handed compliment".   Anyone who knows me is well aware that I think it's a tremendous course, and if memory serves, I was so impressed I started the thread titled, "Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf".

The title itself was about the biggest, most sincere compliment I could give a course.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I never gave Lederach a "back-handed compliment".   Anyone who knows me is well aware that I think it's a tremendous course, and if memory serves, I was so impressed I started the thread titled, "Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf".

The title itself was about the biggest, most sincere compliment I could give a course.

I have read every word you have written about Lederach...Can we at least agree now that everyone who enjoys golf can enjoy the course and not just those who "get it".  Who wants to hire an architect that designs courses too smart for the intended demographic...You have done Kelly no favors with your reviews.  I think that fits the definition of backhanded compliment.

[cary lichtenstein]

John,

I never gave Lederach a "back-handed compliment".   Anyone who knows me is well aware that I think it's a tremendous course, and if memory serves, I was so impressed I started the thread titled, "Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf".

The title itself was about the biggest, most sincere compliment I could give a course.

I have read every word you have written about Lederach...Can we at least agree now that everyone who enjoys golf can enjoy the course and not just those who "get it".  Who wants to hire an architect that designs courses too smart for the intended demographic...You have done Kelly no favors with your reviews.  I think that fits the definition of backhanded compliment.

John

Great comment. Why don't you start a separate thread about "who gets it and who doesn't". It should bring alot of response.

Cary

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

You may call it a backhanded compliment to suggest that a number of modern golfers would have trouble "getting";

- blind approach shots
- central bunkering
- blind hazards!!
- severely undulating greens almost on par with The Old Course in degree of internal contour
- 225 yard UPHILL par threes and 120 yard DOWNHILL par threes
- a 650 yard UPHILL par five to a blind green on a shallow shelf
- fairways that feature NO containment, but that are just as likely to repel your ball into death
- several optical illusions from the tee that obstruct vision and angle of attack

John, I love this stuff but also know that there isn't much being built like it these days.   To not mention how different it is from typical modern golf courses is not only intellectually dishonest, but it does no service to Kelly whatsoever;  how else would anyone know how cerebrally creative, boldly intriguing, and daringly different his work is?!  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Keep digging your hole, you might find the remnants of an old bunker in their someday.  I read 11 negatives in just your post above.  You have played way too much golf alone in your day.  I only spend time away from work with golfers (and the occasional gambler) and less than 1% are a dumb as you think.  

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I'd say simply that if a course doesn't have some controversial features, the architect hasn't done his job, nor is it likely a course that will maintain interest.

Would you rather I have written a beige piece like Joe Logan did that was about as descriptive of an accurate depiction of Lederach as you are physically to Danny Devito?

If you are telling me that 99% of golfers like and understand blind bunkers off the tee, or greens that might require them to play 7 feet of break, or convex greens and fairways that are more likely to repel shots than contain them, or long shots to tiny greens and short approaches to huge ones, then I think you're either lying just to give me a hard time or simply out of your freaking mind.  

I hope I'm wrong, frankly, but the two fellows I played with my first visit to Lederach, both members of Rolling Green who I got paired with on the first tee (after paying my green fee, John), were somewhat mystified and frustrated.   Afterwards, one said the course was "about a 5", and cited as the high point "the greens were very smooth".  

Yeah, they both got it.   Uh huh.

[ed_getka]

Geez John, your <1% isn't looking good.

[mike_malone]

It is great news that Lederach is being recognized. I have yet to find a golfer who has played there that liked it (beyond the gca.com crowd). I don't know whether it means people "don't get it". But they do seem to have different expectations. They want to be able to hit it straight off the tee and not be in trouble and hit a shot to an uphill green and have it hold.

   I have hope that in the long run it will stand out even for these golfers that don't like it at first , because it is a different brand of golf; one that has more uncertainty about it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mayday

I doubt that those don't like Lederach on their first play will return. Many of my friends whom I have brought there won't. I tell them that this is a course that takes more than one play to get the hang of and feel comfortable with the options but they won't return. Nevertheless, from what I hear, Lederach did almost 23000 rounds since the April opening and the township is happy so far with the amount of play.

[John Kavanaugh]

I hope I'm wrong, frankly, but the two fellows I played with my first visit to Lederach, both members of Rolling Green who I got paired with on the first tee (after paying my green fee, John), were somewhat mystified and frustrated.   Afterwards, one said the course was "about a 5", and cited as the high point "the greens were very smooth".  

Yeah, they both got it.   Uh huh.

Who the hell outside this site gives courses a 5...Was this a Doak or a Derek 5..  My God man, these guys are members of Rolling Green..I bet you sized them up before they got a tee in the ground.

[Mike_Cirba]

Who the hell outside this site gives courses a 5...Was this a Doak or a Derek 5..  My God man, these guys are members of Rolling Green..I bet you sized them up before they got a tee in the ground.

Man, John...you sure hate to be proven wrong, don't you?  

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Rather than listen to the honest opinion of me, redanman, Steve Shaffer, mayday, Kyle, Doug Braunsdorf, Mike Sweeney, and others who've played it, why don't you just stick your nose in with your rater-baiting agenda and make a fool of yourself talking about something you haven't the slightest idea about.

Oh wait...you already did.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Rather than listen to the honest opinion of me, redanman, Steve Shaffer, mayday, Kyle, Doug Braunsdorf, Mike Sweeney, and others who've played it, why don't you just stick your nose in with your rater-baiting agenda and make a fool of yourself talking about something you haven't the slightest idea about.

Oh wait...you already did.  

You guys all love the course but you claim everyone else hates it..I think that is a back handed compliment. I went back and read several thousand of your posts and have concluded the problem I have with your review technique is that your reviews are 90% about you and 10% about the architecture.  I would just like to hear more about what is to like about the course than what you think dummies like me would hate.  btw..Where is the rater bashing...raters do not use the Doak scale.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

What I wrote here isn't written for general public consumption.  It's for a group of people sharing a devoted interest in the nuances and finicky details of the architecture of playing fields.   We tend to like a lot of quirky and off the wall stuff that is certainly not mainstream when one considers the vast amount of golfers who just want nice conditions, some scenic views, a "Championship" course around 7200 yards, par 72, with nothing that will make them either think much or react to the bounces and vagaries of the game.  

They'd rather talk about their course where the greens stimp at 12, where they've just planted trees on the 12 hole to make it "tougher", and where they also make sure that the pond on 18 has a fountain that sprays water in the air, and where any brown spot is akin to a death certificate for the superintendent.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

What I wrote here isn't written for general public consumption.  It's for a group of people sharing a devoted interest in the nuances and finicky details of the architecture of playing fields.   We tend to like a lot of quirky and off the wall stuff that is certainly not mainstream when one considers the vast amount of golfers who just want nice conditions, some scenic views, a "Championship" course around 7200 yards, par 72, with nothing that will make them either think much or react to the bounces and vagaries of the game.  

They'd rather talk about their course where the greens stimp at 12, where they've just planted trees on the 12 hole to make it "tougher", and where they also make sure that the pond on 18 has a fountain that sprays water in the air, and where any brown spot is akin to a death certificate for the superintendent.  

Thank God I am not that much smarter than my friends or they might figure out how stupid I really am.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

It's not being smarter.   It's simply being more interested and better informed.  

Most people don't take this stuff nearly as seriously as we all do, and that's fine.   Their little obsession might be 18th century Italian opera singers, or bird-watching, or collecting stamps.  

Whatever gets you thru the night, John...it's alright.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

My friends take where the play golf very seriously...Except for going to a few college or professional sporting events they commit all of their free time and a large percentage of their income to golf.  I don't understand what you expect of them.