The Setting

[Kyle Harris]

How much does setting influence ones enjoyment of a golf course? I tend not to care as much (meaning that a "poor" setting will not detract from an otherwise excellent golf course) however, I've found that an inspiring setting outside the golf course just serves to enhance any good feelings found therein.

Pebble Beach may be the poster child for this type of experience, but even there many feel that the settins has too much to do with the overall experience and that the golf absent of that is fairly banal. Having never been there, I can't comment, but this type of thing is germaine to the discussion.

Some good settings on good courses:

View of Bok Tower from the 18th at Mountain Lake at dawn:


View from the right side of the 10th fairway at Schuylkill Country Club:

[Scott Witter]

Kyle:

It may not matter as much to the majority of posters here on GCA, but I am willing to bet that the majority of John Q. Public and certainly the resort guy golfer and the wife, think about and are affected by it a lot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Obviously a lot.  The gca question is whether a course like PB is great less its scenic virtures.

[Andy Troeger]

It means quite a bit to me. Its hard for me to get all that excited about most housing courses, unless the holes themselves are REALLY good or the homes are set back and out of the way. I like the feeling of being on a golf course and being very obviously out in a natural setting. Its an added bonus to play when you feel like your group is the only one on the course.

[Doug Ralston]

Of course the setting has a big influence on my enjoyment. Because I am clueless as an actual golfer, the setting makes my dubs and bananas incidental, while not at all distracting from the occasional 'backflipper'.

A good example is my addition of a very difficult trip [for me] to my 'to do' list. That is; The Wilderness at Fortune Bay. I saw it first in GD's Ten Best list. So when I looked up the site, those pictures made it an instant 'destination'. I cannot say if the golfing features of the course are good [though, considering the architect, I expect so] but the setting is a stunner!

Doug

[Tommy Williamsen]

 Of course the setting influences the total experience of the round.  Sixteen at Cypress Point would be a little different if the body of water the player hit over were a bog in Iowa.  

[Kyle Harris]

Of course the setting influences the total experience of the round.  Sixteen at Cypress Point would be a little different if the body of water the player hit over were a bog in Iowa.  

Tommy,

In what manner?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kyle, it is hard not to be inspired or awed on the 16th tee at Cypress.  The last time I was there whales were playing of shore, waves were punding beneath me and I thought that this must be one the mosts glorious settings in the world for golf.  
I remember once hearing someone say that without the ocean, 18 at Pebble Beach would just be another hole.  I wouldn't say it quite that way but the setting does make a difference in the enjoyment of the game.

[Bill Satterfield]

I agree with Tommy.  The setting at Cypress sets it apart from most all other golf courses.  The opportunity to play through the trees, across the sand dunes, and right along the coastline is virtually unmatched.

Wouldn't most people agree shooting over the ocean is not only more beautiful, but much more intimidating to a golfer in general?  That additional "mental" factor is a huge part of golf course design and strategy.  

[Kyle Harris]

I agree with Tommy.  The setting at Cypress sets it apart from most all other golf courses.  The opportunity to play through the trees, across the sand dunes, and right along the coastline is virtually unmatched.

Wouldn't most people agree shooting over the ocean is not only more beautiful, but much more intimidating to a golfer in general?  That additional "mental" factor is a huge part of golf course design and strategy.  

Bill,

It's that mental factor which I am trying to pin down.

Awhile ago, Huckaby and Pat Mucci had a rather intense discussion as to how all the non-golf "clutter" affects the golf course strategy. I tend to be in the Mucci camp in that the clutter has no affect on the strategy. Right now, I'd like to see people's thoughts on how it affects the experience though and the general perceived value of a course outside of simple golf architecture criteria.

[Bill Satterfield]

Are you suggesting that the ocean is "non-golf clutter" at Cypress Point?

[Bob_Huntley]

Kyle,

The air alone along the waters of Monterey Bay are worth an extra two points on the Doak Scale.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

Are you suggesting that the ocean is "non-golf clutter" at Cypress Point?

Yes, that is, unless you can drive it all the way to Japan.

[Bill Satterfield]

So are all water hazards "clutter"?

[Kyle Harris]

So are all water hazards "clutter"?

No, and for maybe the first.... 40 yards or so, the Pacific Ocean isn't clutter at Cypress Point either.

What is clutter is everything outside a reasonable distance (the range of a misstruck shot).

[Eric Franzen]

Scientific studies have proved that the power of context is a effective way to alter the behaviour of us simple human beings. I would doubt that we are immune to that on the golf course. The setting on Cypress 16th would then in some ways affect on how you play the shot if it gets your more releaxed/excited or in any other way change your mood.

[James Bennett]

Eric

I was exhausted when I had the pleasure of trying to hit a second shot to #17 at Cypress Point.  The setting is exhilirating, the air is wonderful (as Bob pointed out) but you can run out of adrenalin.  I think I ran low on oxygen.

James B

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sometimes unadulturated beauty is enough to bring you back - the Old Head seems such a course.

did you know they are building luxury houses on that amazing piece of land that the old head is situated on?... and here was me thinking that donal trump (see t'other thread) was the only one who really knew how to completely kill the setting of a golf course...

for me, away from the links, loch lomond provides the perfect setting... haven't played the course though

[Tom Huckaby]

Kyle:

Just be careful what you're attributing to me, lest we start talking college football again and I get even meaner about your Nittany Lions.  

My point on this subject, made many times, and disagreed with many times by Mr. Fighting Irish, is this:  setting matters, and it's silly to say it doesn't.  Now you can try to get into why and how it matters, and say it effects the experience and not the architecture, or wonder if it affects one's playing strategy or not... but those are all side issues.  Yes Mucci and I did argue about each, and of course he remains very, very wrong.  

But the bottom line is this:  setting does matter.  One does not play this game with his eyes closed... and only the heartless or most competitive would even try to block it out.

TH

[Kirk Gill]

What is clutter is everything outside a reasonable distance (the range of a misstruck shot).

It's not clutter if it in some ways affects your ability to hit a shot. Seems to me that proximity to great aesthetic beauty or history or noise or ugliness can either ennoble you or distract you or get you puckering and unpuckering to the point that your ability to execute a shot is affected. Seems to me that it's not clutter if it can get into the golfer's head and make a difference.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kirk - where were you when I was battling this with Mucci?
 

And the question isn't so much does setting effect the golfer,
or should it... of course it does for most  -for just the reasons
you and Eric F. have said - but then again it can be blocked
out, and is so by some - those of a heartless nature, and those in ultra-competitive situations (both apply to Mucci at
different times   ).

No, the real question is what I think Kyle is asking, and
that is how much should it effect one's assessment of a golf
course.

It is here where Mucci and I differ the greatest.  He says
it should have no effect; I say to deny it is foolish.

I have great pictures of how Mucci and I each look
at Pebble Beach #6... maybe it's time to re-post those so
Kyle gets his head on straight.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Huckaby's view of #6 Pebble:



Mucci's view of the same:



 

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

Now THAT is funny! Setting does matter whether or not it is an ocean or mountains or whatever.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - glad you liked that.  My art skills are something, huh?
 

Oh well, what the hell... toward the end of the now-defunct
college football threads, Mucci and I were in hand-holding
agreement, and that just ain't right.  Hopefully he sees
this so we can spar again.  

[RJ_Daley]

Don't worry Huck, the WSJ is all over this.  You are in the Vanguard of the discussion with Mucci.

From the article, "Fourteen lines define a sonnet, 18 holes define a golf course. Most importantly, however, they were created expressly to give pleasure and trigger responses in us that go deep -- at least in those of us who know what we're talking about when we talk about golf."

Let the Huckaby-Mucci games recommence...