[Scott Witter]

We are all quite familiar with the Redan, the Biarritz, the Eden, so on and so forth....will there be any famous names/characteristics of holes designed by the modern guys and what do you think those characteristics might be like?  If they do take form, will they also be copied with such passion as we have seen over the years?  Have they already been designed, but yet unnamed?

[Joe Hancock]

Scott,

See my post on the thread about having your own club....

Joe

[Scott Witter]

Thanks Joe, but I was looking for something deeper

[Joe Hancock]

Thanks Joe, but I was looking for something deeper

Dude, that's all I got......

Joe

[Scott Witter]

This sure will be a boring thread if only you and I pass it back and forth

Hey, how is the fun with Mike Nuzzo going in TX?  Isn't is past lunch time in TX and shouldn't you be back on the dozer?

[Jim Thompson]

Scott,

The tough thing about having an original thought is that so many other forms are out there that even if you really had the thought yourself, someone will accuse you of copying another concept used someplace else.  Sadly, I think the current generation will be referred to as emulating someone else’s style and not given credit for their original methods.  I think the cat is also out of the bag on the value of good land to boot.  How many of the greats were, in some significant part, great because they got great sites?  The modern guys are being forced to deal with land forms that used to be on the outskirts of original population areas and were not that desirable in the first place.

Cheers!

JT

[ed_getka]

Scott,
   I doubt anyone can come up with something original that will stand the test of time.
   Jim Thompson came up with a great twist on the Biarritz concept at Angels Crossing, but that doesn't make it original, more of a modification/variation on a theme.
   That doesn't mean the modern guys can't do some of these things even better. For instance, some templates are just greens, and the modern guys on a par 4 for instance might have added an interesting tee shot option. Or on a par 5, that may have had a dull second shot, they have figured out a way to add interest to that. However, I don't think any of these will become templates some day. Unless of course the original disappears in an attempt to "improve" the hole, and the variation on a theme hole becomes the template.

[Scott Witter]

Jim:

"The tough thing about having an original thought is that so many other forms are out there that even if you really had the thought yourself, someone will accuse you of copying another concept used someplace else"

I know what you mean, but didn't the old guys have this 'concern' as well?  I think they did at least to some extent, but I don't believe they worried about it all that much...I could be niave about this, or else, was it all that new back then, (I'm talking early golden age and golden age stuff), and did it never really enter their minds?

"How many of the greats were, in some significant part, great because they got great sites?"

I think plenty of that applies even now....no names needed.  There are of course many talented people out there and they don't 'need' a great natural site to do something interesting and original, but having a great site does have huge advantages in many ways.

It just seems odd to me and almost hard to believe that with all the great talent out there, someone hasn't created something on the level of the Redan, Eden, Biarritz....Now, I am not discounting in any way the other excellent work many of the modern designers have developed, but I'm speaking of something more individual.

[Scott Witter]

Ed:

Why not, was GCA just that NEW back then...have we tapped the great minds of originality?

"That doesn't mean the modern guys can't do some of these things even better"

I agree and believe some have done better...they should have.

[Phil_the_Author]

The problem with hole types or template holes used in modern golf course design can be traced back to the original creations. Courses were originally designed with holes that fit the actual terrain of where they were laid out.

I know, that is such a simple concept, but consider the original "Alps" hole. Didn't come about as a result of the land on which it was placed. In other words, if you have a flat piece of land and want to make the hole an "Alps" you'll have to push a whole lot of dirt around, something they were not doing back in the late 18 & early 1900's.

That is why today's efforts to "reproduce hole types" and to create new ones will usually prove unsuccessful because for the most part an effort is being made to push a bunch of square pegs into round holes and proclaim it a triangle.

Tillinghast was so successful because for the most part he looked at the land he was to design a course for and laid out the holes that would then best fit the terrain. That is why his double dog-leg par-fives aren't rue template holes. Some go left-right, others right-left, or left-left or right-right...

I believe that if modern architects concentrate bringing out the best holes that can be routed and/or designed on the land given they are given to work with that they will ultimately produce exceptional golf courses.

A good example of this is Mike Young's new Long Shadow course. Even where some may see a particular "hole type" laid out in front of them, what Mike has actually done is create golf holes that are magnified by the natural lay of the land, regardless of whatever dirt was moved.

[Mike_Cirba]

Gee, thanks for the GREAT idea, Scott.  

100 years from now Patrick Mucci IV will be mind-melding with some guy across the country on the interplanetary internet disputing that the hole that Scott Witter built wasn't REALLY a "Sonic", but a "pseudo-Sonic".    

[Jim_Kennedy]

Scott,
I think that well ran dry a long time ago. Golf has been around for so long that I think every 'new' hole owes something to one that came before. I tend to believe that there is a finite number of stratagems in golf and they were all found out a long time ago. There is a great deal of latitude available to improve upon, mix and match, or use them in one way or another, but after 400 or so years, isn't it really just one big continuum?
 

[RJ_Daley]

Angels Crossing 10th green site is about as original of a new design concept as I've seen.  I thought of a peace sign, but he more accurately calls it a TV dinner plate.  Salisbury Steak in one compartment, peas and carrots in another, and of course your mashed taters and gravy in the third.  I don't think I've seen a green and surrounds like it, and I'd think I'd remember if I did.  Some would think MacRaynor, and he definitely has some tributes to that style of double plateaus, soap dishes etc. throughout the course.  But, a TV dinner plate?  Brilliant!

[Tom_Doak]

There are plenty of original golf holes in the world.  And there's still room for some more.  

But, when I occasionally come up with something original, I don't give it a name and then try to copy it on other courses.

And when we do come up with something original on occasion, it's always site-driven, not something I drew up on a paper bag when I was 18.  I am sure someone could ruin it by claiming that such-and-such hole in Ireland is similar, but if the land was really the inspiration, that's just a waste of energy.  For that matter, who says the Redan at North Berwick was truly original and not just someone's interpretation of somewhere else?

[Jim Thompson]

RJ,

Are you on the psychic friends network today or what???  I had sent Scott an IM that talked about #10 earlier today.  I think if Raynor would have seen it he'd have tried to copy it.  I think it would really appeal to anyone who appreciates engineering and angles.  That said I'll give you the holes actual origin.  Bruce had done a less severe version on the first green up at Hidden River we just rotated the green a bit, added some bunkers, the drop off the right and gave it a good dose of steroids.  Those ridges took quite a bit of work to tie out.  Thank goodness for the Gill rake.

Oh and the members refer to the pin as being in the mashed potatoes (left third), the veggies (back third), or, my favorite the apple brown betty (right third).

Cheers!


JT

[Bill Gayne]

Desmond Nuirhead comes to mind. What was it "Jaws of Death." Forrest Richardson posted something that I thought was fairly radical with saw-tooth wall on water. I don't know if there was a name. Jim Engh built that hole at Fossil Trace with the big rock structures in the fairway. I'm sure that could be given a name and if they build Old Engh in 2107 it will be an Engh template hole.

[JBergan]

Desmond Nuirhead comes to mind. What was it "Jaws of Death." Forrest Richardson posted something that I thought was fairly radical with saw-tooth wall on water. I don't know if there was a name.

This one?

http://www.isteve.com/Stone_Harbor_7th_old.jpg

[ed_getka]

Scott,
    Yes, I think all the themes have been found, and anything today is just a variation on a theme.
    There are people who probably think they can come up with original plots for plays, movies, whatever, but when you boil them down to their essence they are nothing more than variations on a theme that have been around for a long time.

[Scott Witter]

Jim:

"I think that well ran dry a long time ago."

I agree in the context that I posted...I don't see any more Redans, or Biarritz's on the horizon any time soon, but then there may still be an opportunity for the Matthews/Thompson...et al "TV Dinner Plate".  It does look like an interesting twist on a great original concept and that is probably what it is all about.

Tom Doak's comment is more the case of what has been and will continue to happen...when presented with interesting land, many original holes will be created based on the nuances of the ground and other site conditions...they just may not ever reach the stage/status where they are put in the spot light as in the past...though that doesn't make them any less original or spectacular no matter who did them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Scott,

There are some possibilities. For example, Keith Foster did a cliff hanger in the Quarry near San Antonio and named it Reload.  If he went on to create similar holes with a lock up on one side (either by steep bank, water, or OB) I supposed he could find a way to use that name over and over.

I kind of like the idea, postulating in Paul Daley's first book that a hole or hazard with a name must be memorable and distinct enough that it reminds almost everyone of the same thing enough to give it a name.

Certainly a green contoured after Maxwellian principals on every course could be called the Buried Elephant hole, which hasn't been "formally taken" as a hole name as far as I know.

The well is only dry if your imagination is limited!

[paul cowley]

I'd propose certain holes where the design and building of new 'faux' historic hardscape elements have been incorporated in the strategy of the design......but I've said that before.

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